What are factors for what "class" of lathe to buy?

[Aaron_W]

9 K for a 12" lathe ? Wow ! If I was going to spend that kind of money , I would be looking at Hardinges HLV-Hs on Craigslist . Are PMs really that expensive ?

Yeah, there has been a significant price increase of import lathes over the past 4 or so years. A lot of import machines have seen price increases as much as 50% over what they were in 2016-17. The infamous Harbor Freight 7x10" was $499 in 2016, now they are $779 and almost never go on sale, while in 2016 you could use the 25% off coupons. Interestingly the few US makers of hobbyist grade machines (primarily Taig and Sherline) have not seen large price increases.

I to wish there were more manufacturers in this area of smaller lathes... seems like you just have 1 or two major manufacturers...then pick your seller.

That is a comment I've seen from many, particularly those who enjoy the smaller class of lathes. There really isn't much in the way of a modern Myford 7 or South Bend 9A available to the small shop hobbyist. Even your 618 is a pretty fancy machine compared to most of the 7" and 8" import lathes. Emco comes the closest but they dropped out of the hobby market in the 80s.

 

[skcncx]

So, reading this thread, and having participated in dozens of similar ones I just want to point out a few things. You talk about classes of lathes and I think that's a good analogy, kinda like what class boxers fall into. There are lightweights, middle weights and heavyweights and many more divisions than I know.

The most important thing I see here is weight of the machine in question. Someone on here said once "you can't add iron" What that means to me is you can add accessories, tooling, DRO's, and all sorts of things to make your machine more useful but you're stuck with the base castings your machine came with. Since you have a 6x18 you already know the limitations of a small machine so we don't need to explain that.

Just looking at the specs from PM the 12x28 weighs in at 490lbs without stand, while the 12x36 is 1200lbs with the stand. That's a big difference that will impact the cuts you'll be able to make with each machine, kinda like putting a bantam weight fighter against a middleweight. The technique can be great for either but in the end the middle weight will win most of the time.

Speaking of stands....

You mentioned using a toolbox on wheels for your stand. While that may work I suspect you won't be happy with it in the long run, toolboxes just aren't built to take that kind of weight on top and when you add tooling it's easy to exceed the overall capacity. Remember this a dynamic load, not static like a drawer full of tools.

What I'm planning on is building a tube steel stand with space to accommodate toolboxes. The stand itself will have both wheels and leveling feet, I have the cheap Chinese knock-off leveling feet but honestly I think cast iron wheels with separate leveling feet will be the way to go. I also want to build fine lathe leveling into the top of the stand so I don't have to lay on the ground so much.

@davidpbest has a great write up on the stand he built for his PM 1340, also many other projects including how to make a solid plinth to increase the rigidity of any lathe.

So for me I'd say you're really looking at two classes of machines between the ones you mentioned above. Taiwan builds better machines but precision mostly depends on how you use the tools, at least at the hobby level. For the extra $600 in my mind it's an easy decision, mass wins almost every time when it comes to machine tools. You may never need it for your application but if you do you'll be happy it's there.

Cheers,

John

Thanks for the insight... The PM 1228 is 490 lbs but the 1236T is only 850lb... still quite a bit more than the 1228. I think my atlas 618 is like 100 lbs... easily lifted mounting board and all into the back of my truck . The 1236 I think has to be mounted one of their stands... and I spend more than the PM 1228... I'll just jump to the 1236T.

A rolling tool box on wheels with leveling feet so it's off the caster when turning is likely a certainty.... that's actually a benefit of the 1228 (though, likely sacrificing what's most important for the lathe and that is mass. I gotta imagine, if I mounted the PM 1228 on a 1.75" thick maple board on a 2000lb rated tool chest and only turned when it's on leveling feet, that should be prettcy decent setup. The 1236T... now I do think I'm pushing the limits for a rolling toolchest setup..... The convenience for all the periphery to make a productive workstation is so nice to have given I don't have a ton of workshop space and my OCD on organization kicks in.

The tubular framed bench and with tool chests just slid in ... not the main support is the next best thing... just takes a lot more work... but would be a fun project for me... just go into aluminum welding, with the right structure and design, could make it work.

 

[skcncx]

Yeah, there has been a significant price increase of import lathes over the past 4 or so years. A lot of import machines have seen price increases as much as 50% over what they were in 2016-17. The infamous Harbor Freight 7x10" was $499 in 2016, now they are $779 and almost never go on sale, while in 2016 you could use the 25% off coupons. Interestingly the few US makers of hobbyist grade machines (primarily Taig and Sherline) have not seen large price increases.



That is a comment I've seen from many, particularly those who enjoy the smaller class of lathes. There really isn't much in the way of a modern Myford 7 or South Bend 9A available to the small shop hobbyist. Even your 618 is a pretty fancy machine compared to most of the 7" and 8" import lathes. Emco comes the closest but they dropped out of the hobby market in the 80s.

I really wanted a Taig... but I realized it's just too small.... wish they would design a next size up model. I'd be fine in the 10x22 size range... but once you get to the 12" size you start having the QCGB and isolated feed and threading shafts.

 

[FOMOGO]

Quote: What are factors for what "class" of lathe to buy?​

I have several lathes from several different class's. One form the class of 39', one from the class of 42' one from the class of 02', and even one from the class of 1891. Me, I'm from the class of 69, anywhere, any time. Mike

 

[matthewsx]

Check out this stand....

Welded Stand For PM1340 Lathe

Designed and fabricated specifically for the Precision Matthews PM1340 metal lathe. Descriptions in comments of each image - just click the image for explanation.

www.flickr.com

 

[skcncx]

Check out this stand....

Welded Stand For PM1340 Lathe

Designed and fabricated specifically for the Precision Matthews PM1340 metal lathe. Descriptions in comments of each image - just click the image for explanation.

www.flickr.com

Read his thread... really good design setup for strength in structure and functionality!

 

[Dabbler]

@skcncx The criteria you name and the analysis of that criteria have painted quite a good picture of your thoughts, and your reasoning is sound.

If you want a good -general purpose- lathe, then weight is a factor, and the more the (usually) better. I have a 12X37 lathe weighing around 800lbs, a 14X40 weighing at around 1500 lbs, and a 15X60 at 3300lbs. you can notice the extra rigidity and quality of finish as you progress to the heavier machines. This is also an aid to learning, as you can find the smaller lathes complicate parting and form tool operations.

Not all of us have the room for a bigger lathe and I get it. *In theory* it is more versatile to have a bench lathe (storage, etc) but in practice, the lathes needs a VERY solid top to get consistent diameters past 1" of stick out - My 12X37 has a custom stand nowadays. The lathe is bolted to a frame made of 3X1/4" angle iron with cross braces, and steel plates for rigidity. Even so, I would now design the entire base differently, and make it far more rigid.

UNLESS your biggest part will be in the 1" X 1" range. then ignore all of the above...

I always advocate for the 2 lathe system: the one you learn on, and the one that will be your permanent one... You seem to be doing just that,

I have a Taiwanese lathe, and Chinese lathe and an American lathe. The Taiwanese lathe is every bit as high quality as my American lathe, and in some areas, far exceeds it. There were, however a few flaws in the Taiwanese lathe that I had to correct as well. My Chinese lathe, the 14X40, is still adequate, but on many points is not as refined as either of the other two.

If I were to look at a purchase from the point of view of X for Chinese origin or X+20% for a Taiwanese origin, I'd choose the Taiwanese. I feel that it lowers the risk there will be a flaw in the machine. It is no guarantee. As Matt from PM will tell you, The extra he pays for the Taiwanese lathes (and passes on to you) gives the manufacturer far less incentive to cut corners and provide you a lifelong lathe.

 

[7milesup]

Ahhh what the heck, I might as well chime in too. I started on a PM 1022 lathe. At first, I thought it was a really nice lathe, and for the most part it was. Blondihacks does some really nice work on one. I built a custom stand for mine out of tubing and had some shelves underneath for storage. Not as elaborate as David Best's, but it got the job done. But, I started to find more limitations with the length of the PM1022. I started looking at used American Iron, specifically the LeBlond line, but really did not find what I was looking for. I also was not real comfortable buying a used lathe because I was unsure as to how to evaluate the wear that it might have. In the end, I bought an Eisen 1440 (same as the PM1440GT). I can do better work on the 1440 than the 1022 because of fit, finish, and weight. I love it. I paid $7600 for it, delivered. Three months later the price is $13,200.
There are a lot of lathes that advertise a heavy cast iron base, but to me, that is somewhat wasted space. Build a heavy stand that has drawers or shelving that can be utilized for tool or stock storage. I personally would not put a lathe on top of a tool chest; It seems that it would not have the integrity to prevent cutting issues.
If I was you, I would either get the 1236GT or keep looking for good used iron.

 

[skcncx]

If I were to look at a purchase from the point of view of X for Chinese origin or X+20% for a Taiwanese origin, I'd choose the Taiwanese. I feel that it lowers the risk there will be a flaw in the machine. It is no guarantee. As Matt from PM will tell you, The extra he pays for the Taiwanese lathes (and passes on to you) gives the manufacturer far less incentive to cut corners and provide you a lifelong lathe.

If it was only 20% increase, that's a no brainer. It's more like x + 60%. For my use and setup, that's the hard decision. That extra $3K in the long term isn't that much... but if I don't need to why spend it.

Based prices (no DRO or QCTP and similar included accessories)
PM-1228VF-LB - $4,400
PM-1236T - $7,000

With DROs and QCTP
PM-1228VF-LB $5,200 (AXA QCTP)
PM-1236T - $8,299 (BXA QCTP, could reduce $300 if I remove their DRO install fee)
*DROS are same model

I am re-thinking my stand issue.. no doubt a chest of drawers built in somewhere, but a heavier duty structure (casters only for moving when needed, otherwise firmly planted and leveled as much as possible). That's where I actually prefer the less weight of the 1228... but that might be a silly compromise given all the insight on mass, rigidity has a direct affect... when turning larger stuff. Most of my stuff will be 2" diameter or less in aluminum, 2-6" length..

Maybe take more time on my Atlas 618 and wait and see.... but I do think I've gotten immeasurable knowledge for getting into this craft and knowing what's important to me with just a few months of using it.

 

[mmcmdl]

Man , I would send you a nice table your way if I could . I have a saw going out to Ohio today but I think his van is full already . It sounds like you already made up your mind on the lathe . Either way , get ready for the fun .