What is meant by (adjective) precision?

If the terms are used properly, precision is how close your final result repeats it's self. Precision in a drill chuck would mean how exactly your theoretically perfect drill bit repeated it's actual runout, which would be it's geometrical relationship to the drill chuck. Or in a vice, if you clamped the same theoretically perfect block ten thouosand times in a row, how close to the exact same position would the piece be. Accuracy would refer to how close those final results came to the actual result that you dialed in. In a drill chuck, that would be the deviation from a datum of zero runout. In a vise, you might be looking at the deflection and actual plane that the top surface lands in, and it's deviation from a datum plane that's parallel to the plane defined by the X and Y motion.

When you see either of those terms tossed out without supporting numbers, technically speaking, that's marketing wank. The actual numbers are what you want to look at.

Then throw in tolerance. If it's spec'ed at a max deviation, then that's what it is, or at least should be. If it's just spec'ed at a number, you've got to figure that some are better, and some are worse. Two tenths, or two thousandths? Wo knows unless that's called out...

Precision, high precisioin, ultra precision, any way you slice ti, those terms are being used as branding, and/or casual conversational level to indicate "good, better, best" among a product line in a way that both educated and informed and experienced customers, as well as new, unexperienced, not yet well informed customers, who may not even have taken the tools and their uses to a point that warrants education, and all of the folks in the full range between the two can get something they can sink their teeth into for comparison from brand to brand, and within a brand line.

If you're at the point where you need to know the specifications of a tool, then the actual numbers are what's going to matter. Accuracy numbers, precision (or repeatability) numbers, and tolerance numbers. That will be (hopefully.....) the final answer. But those are what matters.

In terms of the Precision Matthews drill chucks, I just looked at a couple, and I see that a high precision one lists a "maximum of 0.001 inch" of runout. A ultra precisioin one listed a "maximum of 0.0078 inch" of runout. That's kind of an umbrella statement that rolls it all into one number. Both numbers are quite good for a drill chuck. (and probably better than your actual drill bits...) But it kinda only tells you the accuracy. The precision would be how close it comes to being exactly the same every time. In the case of that example, to me it wouldn't even mater. Drill chucks are not a "precision instrument", and the maximum runout is really the only number that's going to affect you. I'm not sure how they label their other stuff, but that's the approach I take. Provided i'm not in a high precision industrial environment buying high volumes of very expensive tooling, I just move past the casual description and looking at the numbers that are pertenant to me. If I were in a high precision production industrial envirionment where fifty millionths mattered.... I'd expect different from my suppliers, and I wouldn't be shopping at the same places that I do for stuff I use at home in a hobby environment, or at work in a repair shop envirionment.

.02
 
Read @davidpbest's post #2. He sums it up eloquently.

Looking at the descriptions of the vises for example, the 6" "Ground Milling Vise" has a flatness of .002". The "High Precision" 6" vise has a .0006" flatness. Interestingly enough, the 6" "Homge Ultra Precision" has a flatness of .001"; however, apparently, the "Ultra Precision" vises come with a certificate of parallelism and squareness.
I own both a PM 5" High Precision vise and a Kurt D688. The difference in quality is very noticeable, but then again, so is the price. Interestingly enough, I could not find comparable specs on the Kurt website. However, Kurt replaced the D688 vise with the DX6 vise, and in their literature, they guarantee the body height between the two with an accuracy of plus or minus .0005".
What you said is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for, regarding the Kurt and PM's vises. While I would probably have stumbled upon the same information sooner or later, you saved me a lot of time and looking that will be better spent differentiating other tooling brands - like for drill chucks and fly cutters. Truth be told, after using my HF with a cheap vise* ANYTHING I buy will likely be a vast improvement, but if I know the differences up front, it makes me an informed consumer.

*I own no parallels now, and what I've done is mill a piece of wood to the thickness I need (both faces are parallel to w/in less than 0.001), place that in the vise, my workpiece on top of it and clamp the metal tightly. I can then drill or mill right through the metal into the wood w/ no worries.
 
In terms of the Precision Matthews drill chucks, I just looked at a couple, and I see that a high precision one lists a "maximum of 0.001 inch" of runout. A ultra precisioin one listed a "maximum of 0.0078 inch" of runout.
Did you mean the ultra precision runout is 0.00078" compared to high precision runout of 0.001?
 
technically speaking, that's marketing wank.
Off topic but I'm surprised (and heartened) at the use of that particular anglo-saxonism; it's a particularly British expletive, that I rarely see used by our cousins across the puddle.

May I offer my sincere approbation for the use of this four letter word, especially in such an appropriate context.

More of your fellow citizens should delve into the delightfully expressive sack of British swears. ;)

Oh and great post by the way. :)
 
Did you mean the ultra precision runout is 0.00078" compared to high precision runout of 0.001?

My typing is precision, but not high precision or ultra precision. You can expect an omitted zero about once every 2.82 posts. :cool:


Off topic but I'm surprised (and heartened) at the use of that particular anglo-saxonism; it's a particularly British expletive, that I rarely see used by our cousins across the puddle.

Wow. I did not know where that came from. Nor did I know it was a proper expletive. Well, I do know where it came from..... I'm positive I got it from YouTube at some point, but that's a pretty big place if you think about it. I've actually picked up a lot of very succinct and practical (and usually polite) words from some British and Commonwealth creators, that just fill in nicely where American English is lacking the correct word. (Or more likely it is not, but the "correct" word is so obsolete that nobody would recognize it).

More of your fellow citizens should delve into the delightfully expressive sack of British swears. ;)

I won't lie, I do kind of enjoy that split millisecond instant when somebody hears a word which they absolutely understand, but weren't expecting.
Now, since you took an interest, I've got to ask you- Is that one "expletive enough" that I should refrain from using it in polite company?
 
IMHO, Precision Matthews would do itself a favor and realize that it's customers are, by and large, engineers and re-do their marketing material to include less mostly meaningless adjectives and more quantitative information. Get specifics to facilitate meaningful comparisons. Also, update the comparison charts to include newer equipment and more than just the few mills. It's work, but it'd clear things up a good bit and reduce the effort and angst involved in selecting equipment.
 
My typing is precision, but not high precision or ultra precision. You can expect an omitted zero about once every 2.82 posts. :cool:




Wow. I did not know where that came from. Nor did I know it was a proper expletive. Well, I do know where it came from..... I'm positive I got it from YouTube at some point, but that's a pretty big place if you think about it. I've actually picked up a lot of very succinct and practical (and usually polite) words from some British and Commonwealth creators, that just fill in nicely where American English is lacking the correct word. (Or more likely it is not, but the "correct" word is so obsolete that nobody would recognize it).



I won't lie, I do kind of enjoy that split millisecond instant when somebody hears a word which they absolutely understand, but weren't expecting.
Now, since you took an interest, I've got to ask you- Is that one "expletive enough" that I should refrain from using it in polite company?
To be fair Aussies and Kiwis will also use it too.

Well, yes, that moment of intake of breath and laughter thereafter is kind of fun :D

It is definitely not for use in polite company. It was, in my youth (I'm now in my 50's) one of the four words (the others being f***, s***, c***) that one would not use in front of any respectable adult.

(just in case you weren't aware, it is also used to mean 'flim-flam' or 'bulls**t' but its actual meaning is...um...'DIY', if you know what I mean).

(mods: feel free to zap this post if you feel it's inappropriate, language should be used appropriate to the context and if referring to these words is inappropriate, I'm happy to take instruction ;) )
 
IMHO, Precision Matthews would do itself a favor and realize that it's customers are, by and large, engineers and re-do their marketing material to include less mostly meaningless adjectives and more quantitative information. Get specifics to facilitate meaningful comparisons. Also, update the comparison charts to include newer equipment and more than just the few mills. It's work, but it'd clear things up a good bit and reduce the effort and angst involved in selecting equipment.
I'm curious how you know most of their customers are engineers? Most machinists aren't engineers, so why would PM have the market on engineers buying machinery? I can't imagine after all these years they don't know their customer base, and going off the posts I see about people buying them few mention being engineers.
 
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