What are factors for what "class" of lathe to buy?

[davidpbest]

Nice setup... yes, I think a collet chuck will be in my sights in the future for sure... not sure 5C or ER40... I have heard about those dynamics you mention... ER collets needing more grip on the part where as 5C can grip very little... as well as a bit safer and easier to get close to the chuck.. which I have done with a very conscious effort to keep an eye on my saddle, cutter and fingers.

Hard to tell from the last pic, but that's about as large of a item I would turn. That's also a pretty nice looking collet wrench.

Read the attached before you decide between the two types of collet chucks. Also attached is my curated list of other tools and accessories you'll be considering at some point. And most newbies have fits getting down good parting operations, so I'm attaching a writeup on that topic for your reading enjoyment.

I've resisted making commentary on your "which lathe" quandary thus far, but thought I'd chime in with a few comments. "Fit and Finish" doesn't capture the difference between Taiwan and mainland Chinese equipment. Both employ soft and crumbly body filler to smooth out the castings which will break away when hit with something hard leaving a nasty scar. The paint used in both situations is pretty crappy also and is prone to chipping under normal working conditions. So the "Finish" part is not a lot different, and, so much to the ridicule of many here, I strip down to bare castings and apply industrial coatings - even on equipment from Taiwan. I don't recommend you consider this unless you have the necessary mechanical aptitude and perfectionist tendencies.

The Taiwanese equipment from PM is certainly better quality - the cast iron is better quality, the gears in the head are hardened, the bearings are much high quality, the way surfaces are more precise, etc. But the Taiwanese equipment isn't German or Swiss level either - the gibs are pretty rough and just grossly fitted, some of the tapped holes are done by hand, and the factory makes an occassional mistake in handwheel markings, mis-marked gears, etc. So don't expect perfection for the extra $$.

I won't put an 800 pound 1236T on a roll-around tool box and expect to do precision work with it. That machine deserves a solid base to stay aligned. I haven't seen the subject of motor size/HP come up in this thread, and I have no experience with the 1228, but my guess is the 1236T will support material removal rates twice that of a 1228 due to the motor and rigidity differences.

If you're actually thinking this is a decision on a "trainer" lathe, one to be used to learn on and upgrade later, then maybe resale value comes into the decision - my guess is there's more used machine residual value in a Taiwanese lathe than one from the mainland.

Before getting my 1340GT I had an Emco V-10P - outstanding small lathe made in Switzerland. I migrated to the 1340 to get a machine with more capacity and power. But you might consider the following lathe. I have no affiliation, not do I know the true condition, but an Emco holds value and is every bit a toolroom quality machine.

Emco Maximat Super 11 lathe Imperial 115 VAC Complete / many accessories | eBay

Emco 3 jaw scroll chuck with two sets of jaws & Emco key. Emco Steady rest. Emco Follower rest. Emco 5C drawbar. Emco MT5 to 5C adapter. Emco MT5 dead center. Emco D1-4 spindle/chuck install wrench. Emco MT2 dead center.

www.ebay.com

Hope this helps

David

 

[Winegrower]

Before getting my 1340GT I had an Emco V-10P

David, it looks like there is a handle on the end of the lead screw…how is this intended to be used?

 

[skcncx]

Unfortunately it looks like October. I almost did the 1130 with DRO because looks like July is the time frame for that Lathe but trying to actually follow my own advice and wait for the one I think would fit my needs the best. I got to admit if PM said the 1236T would be available in July I would probably sign up for another credit card. October feels like a long wait.

I hear ya, was surprised about the availability of the 1130 as well.... but totally worth the wait for the 1228.. from my perspective, for nothing more than the quick change gear box... though, the 1130 has a traditional VFD setup for the motor, where as the electronics on the 1228 are proprietary.... that only matters if it breaks or you would want to change it up or it's out of support and parts cannot be had. AC, DC, BLDC... in my opinion, as long as it has the torque and spins the head and is reliable, I don't have much concern the specifics beyond that....

In your boat as well, if the 1236T was ready for pick up now... that may sway me as well, even if the 1236T makes me do a bit more for the bench it sits on since it's 350 Lb more than the 1228.

 

[skcncx]

Read the attached before you decide between the two types of collet chucks. Also attached is my curated list of other tools and accessories you'll be considering at some point. And most newbies have fits getting down good parting operations, so I'm attaching a writeup on that topic for your reading enjoyment.

I've resisted making commentary on your "which lathe" quandary thus far, but thought I'd chime in with a few comments. "Fit and Finish" doesn't capture the difference between Taiwan and mainland Chinese equipment. Both employ soft and crumbly body filler to smooth out the castings which will break away when hit with something hard leaving a nasty scar. The paint used in both situations is pretty crappy also and is prone to chipping under normal working conditions. So the "Finish" part is not a lot different, and, so much to the ridicule of many here, I strip down to bare castings and apply industrial coatings - even on equipment from Taiwan. I don't recommend you consider this unless you have the necessary mechanical aptitude and perfectionist tendencies.

The Taiwanese equipment from PM is certainly better quality - the cast iron is better quality, the gears in the head are hardened, the bearings are much high quality, the way surfaces are more precise, etc. But the Taiwanese equipment isn't German or Swiss level either - the gibs are pretty rough and just grossly fitted, some of the tapped holes are done by hand, and the factory makes an occassional mistake in handwheel markings, mis-marked gears, etc. So don't expect perfection for the extra $$.

I won't put an 800 pound 1236T on a roll-around tool box and expect to do precision work with it. That machine deserves a solid base to stay aligned. I haven't seen the subject of motor size/HP come up in this thread, and I have no experience with the 1228, but my guess is the 1236T will support material removal rates twice that of a 1228 due to the motor and rigidity differences.

If you're actually thinking this is a decision on a "trainer" lathe, one to be used to learn on and upgrade later, then maybe resale value comes into the decision - my guess is there's more used machine residual value in a Taiwanese lathe than one from the mainland.

Before getting my 1340GT I had an Emco V-10P - outstanding small lathe made in Switzerland. I migrated to the 1340 to get a machine with more capacity and power. But you might consider the following lathe. I have no affiliation, not do I know the true condition, but an Emco holds value and is every bit a toolroom quality machine.

Emco Maximat Super 11 lathe Imperial 115 VAC Complete / many accessories | eBay

Emco 3 jaw scroll chuck with two sets of jaws & Emco key. Emco Steady rest. Emco Follower rest. Emco 5C drawbar. Emco MT5 to 5C adapter. Emco MT5 dead center. Emco D1-4 spindle/chuck install wrench. Emco MT2 dead center.

www.ebay.com

Hope this helps

David

Thanks for the input, I'll read those docs later!! As well for the input on the Taiwan stuff isn't perfect either.

I am certainly no thinking this is a trainer lathe, but I will be learning and training on it , but not for the purpose just to sell and upgrade... hence my dilemma as what to spend the $$ on. I think the 1228 and 1236T would serve me for many years to come if they are dependable.

The 1228 has a 2HP and 1236T has a 1.5 HP... but that's probably a big lie, since the 1228 2HP is on 110 v so that's like saying you have a 6 HP shop vac... just because it can spin fast, no torque. The 1236T is 220 v... actual 2HP with more torque I assume.

Probably not a good philosophy, but I don't buy based on resale value... though resale value does help when you sell it, but I don't plan to do this for years to come and if I get all the satisfaction out of it after 5-10 years... well, I'll give it to someone or sell it to someone who will take good care of it and get more usefulness out of it.... not trying to recoup my investment.

 

[davidpbest]

David, it looks like there is a handle on the end of the lead screw…how is this intended to be used?

That's for manually positioning the cross slide. For lathe operations, it's not very useful, but what you don't see on that Emco is the optional milling head assembly. Here's a photo of another Emco with the milling head that attaches to the back of the boxed ways - the carriage becomes the XY table for milling ops. So that handle is used to manually adjust the position of the "table" along the Z-axis and since it's done with a leadscrew (precision), the handle has the typical graduations for position.

 

[davidpbest]

The 1228 has a 2HP and 1236T has a 1.5 HP... but that's probably a big lie, since the 1228 2HP is on 110 v so that's like saying you have a 6 HP shop vac... just because it can spin fast, no torque. The 1236T is 220 v... actual 2HP with more torque I assume.

The 1228 motor is a DC brushless unit, and although the specs say it's 2HP, my guess is those are different sized horses than the ones plowing on the 1236T 220VAC motor. Torque is a function of the gearing selected, and more of a factor in operations like tapping than in facing or turning operations.

 

[Aurelius]

I'm still very new to all this, but I will chime in to give the other perspective.
I got a 1288 earlier this year (managed to order 1 week after the prices jumped <ouch>).
There are a couple of reasons I chose that model. I had been doing the internet research, reading as much as I could on the forums, etc. and was slowly working my way up in size. For me, the main issues boiled down to:

-Size - I needed something that I (or someone else) could get down a flight of stairs into my basement.

-Power requirements - While I was willing to have an electrician come out, I was not ready to wire up the basement for 220V so 110V had to do.

-Gearbox - I know it's not relevant to your decision, but for me the gearbox on the 1228 vs the 1030 was a huge step up.

-Fit for Purpose - this is the thing that I feel hasn't been discussed as much in this thread. I'm going to be working almost exclusively on parts that are less that 5" so the bed length was fine and not a deciding factor by any means. Also, I dug into comments about the accuracy people were getting on their machines and, while the 1228 was better, the 1030 would have probably been good enough for what I am doing. Not wanting to rely on "probably" was a large part of the the decision to get the 1228. It sounds like the parts you are looking to make would be more than served by either unit.

I will admit that the Chinese origins are showing through in places. The pain looks like it was apply by a preschooler and is already coming off in places. I saw a thread on this forum about tailstock locks and checked mine out and then contacted Pm because I thought mine was missing but it turned out to just have been painted over. In addition, the screw that was in the hole is not the size specified on the drawing in the manual. After some back and forth with PM tech support it was basically "I hate it when they change stuff and don't tell us". I don't know if that's permanent or just something that was specific to that production run, but are the types of things you are going to have to keep an eye out for.

You had mentioned wanting to put the lathe on a toolbox instead of the factory stand. I opted to forego the factory stand (heard some less than stellar reviews) and have mine mounted on a Husky worktable. It's not the adjustable one that you can crank up and down and it's actually surprisingly good. It is trated for a couple thousand pounds, the wood top was plenty thick enouigh for me to drill holes and securely mount the lathe, and the table was adjustable enouigh allowed me to set the height fairly low so the machine is at almost exactly the right height for me to work it comfortably. I'm still working out what, if any, storage I'm going to put underneath and for now I have an old shoe rack that is serving as a shelf that I keep the unused chucks on so they are nearby and accessible.

I briefly looked at the 1236 and the main reasons I didn't go that route were the fact that I might not have been able to get it into the space and I didn't want to have to deal with an electrician to wire the basement for 220V.

One things that I will mention since you had talked about possibly upgrading in the future. The QCTP on the 1228 is AXA and almost anything that would be an upgrade will likely be BXA which means that any future upgrade will likley also require you to upgrade all your tooling as well. Probably not a deal breaker, but it makes the future cost of the upgrade potentially much more expensive and could tilt the current calculus toward just going with the bigger tool now.

I had always been taught to always buy the best tool you can afford but also to make sure it does what you need to do. If you have the space and the cash for the 1236, I doubt you will be upset but I am also a litttle wary that you "need" the 1236. Spending money for the capability to handle hypothetical future projects is a big, potentially expensive gamble. Spending the time to figure out what you need versus what you want will likley save you a lot of money in the long run.

 

[skcncx]

Glad to hear and if I'm reading correctly... you are overall very satisfied with your 1228. Sounds like we are in a similar boat as far as needs and wants and what we're willing to spend.

I assume accuracy on the things that matter are there.... I'm jumping up from an Atlas 618, so it feels like a 1236T (Taiwan) or the 1228 will be a huge leap in features, robustness (deeper cuts) and a bit nicer to operate with the extra features... that takes nothing away from the Atlas 618. I just want something as or more accurate in a larger size and extra features (QCGB and DRO)... already am used to the QCTP (OXA size)

I'm finding it difficult to express and understand "accuracy" and what that means to me and what it means to others... I mean, is .001 accurate, over what distance, for what part, for what purpose, etc... It's a loaded and broad question with too many caveats and nuances.

I have a couple 240v in my shop, so being it's a one man shop, that's not an issue even if I have to switch plugs between stuff.... but it is nice that any 20amp 120 outlet can run the 1228.

-Gearbox - I know it's not relevant to your decision, but for me the gearbox on the 1228 vs the 1030 was a huge step up.

A QCGB is a MUST for me, that's why I'm not even considering the 1030 or 1130.

Also, I dug into comments about the accuracy people were getting on their machines and, while the 1228 was better, the 1030 would have probably been good enough for what I am doing. Not wanting to rely on "probably" was a large part of the the decision to get the 1228

I assume the 1030, 1130 and 1228 are all pretty much the same as accuracy and build quality and just vary on size and features... I would hope the 1228 is better just because it's more $, but I assume a lot of the cost increase is the other features and its size....

I will admit that the Chinese origins are showing through in places.

For me, as long as the major stuff is right... I'll be ok getting past the little things... but the gamble with these can be every 1228 crate you open could vary a bit... so one persons success could be another's frustration.

You had mentioned wanting to put the lathe on a toolbox instead of the factory stand.

Yep, the factory stands seem like a horrible use of space below and not moveable. When I read users saying they are flimsy... seems like a rolling tool chest is a better option anyway if you get a heavy duty one.... load it up with weight and are now adding a fair amount of mass to the structure... I've considered adding a 1/2" steel plate to the top, and the lathe on top of it. The rolling tool chest, likely a 24" deep by 60" long is an easy thing... you get a lot for your money... granted, as some have noted, they really aren't rated for lots of active forces... and partly why the 1228 is a bit nicer being less weight than the 1236T... granted you are sacrificing rigidness and heft which is important to turning.

The QCTP on the 1228 is AXA and almost anything that would be an upgrade will likely be BXA which means that any future upgrade will likley also require you to upgrade all your tooling as well.

Before I put my order in... I really need to understand what the BXA provides over the AXA... I have the OXA now, I figured they just get bigger in part to match the size of the lathe... I guess I could put a BXA on the 1228, would need to check sizes, may not be a good fit.

I had always been taught to always buy the best tool you can afford but also to make sure it does what you need to do. If you have the space and the cash for the 1236, I doubt you will be upset but I am also a litttle wary that you "need" the 1236.

Same here, it does pay to spend extra up front.. as other have noted, I can't add quality and accuracy to the base machine afterward, just accessories and why build on a bad foundations to start.... I'm not putting an all stainless steel muffler on my 188K mile F150. My quandary of 1228 or the 1236T (not the 1236) is just that. The extra size of the 1228 is my prefect max size.. the 1236T is pushing it a bit and the weight requires me to good a little deeper in the pocket book for a proper stand that could roll as necessary. But if it is the next level of fit, quality, features accuracy... it' worth it and I know I wouldn't regret it.... but speculation as you can say can get expensive. Just glad I'm not taking my up or down stairs.

 

[Aaron_W]

I thought he might chime in but @Aukai recently upgraded from a 1228 to a (I believe) PM1340. He probably just hasn't looked into this thread, maybe now he will.

I think looking at the 1228 as an improved 1022/30 or 1127/1130 is probably a safe assumption rather than thinking of it as a short 1236. I understand your dilemma 1236T with DRO will run you an extra $2500-3000, and maybe you appreciate the difference or maybe you just spent 50% more than you had too.

 

[Aukai]

I had the 1228, and was happy with it, it is one size step under the "bigger" lathes, and has more of their features. It is still in the "little" lathe category, mine used AXA QCTH. I never ran out of chuck size, but I did run out of bed length with my aluminum bat, and 15" drill bits. I am also happier with the 1340 size, if I bought the 1236T first I probably would not have had to buy a 2nd lathe.