Turning Tool And Facing Tool Questions

you don't have to have a mill, I'm sure you could manage with a drill press (or hand drill if you have to), a saw and some files.

If the recess is only 3/4in deep you can easily grind a 3/8 square bit to do that. Looking at the front, grind the sides into a 1/4 circle (ie. the bottom right quarter of a circle) for about an inch. Then grind the same side from ~1/4 from the tip to the full inch a little more. Grind the 1st 1/4in so that the tip angles slightly at the side to meet that recess you just ground. Grind the front a wee bit, say 5deg or so, both top to bottom and left to right. Then you can grind the top for a bit of rake if you want. Stone it and you're done, easy peasy.

To the first ......Sadly no , I've recently had a second spinal operation , it's left my shoulders & spinal muscles decidedly weak .
At present I couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding let alone push a fine file through a round hole to make it square.

To the second , that is kind of what I'd envisaged before I mentioned the boring bar idea .
 
You shouldn't have to alter the tool. Just angle the tip about 5 degrees off center. You are orienting the tool like a boring bar, with the tip pointed slightly to your left. Most knife tools should have more than enough relief under the cutting edge to make this cut and the shank of the tool will not even come close to touching the edge of that bore.


Mikey & others you have given me much ammunition to go shooting with ......thanks.

I think I'll have to have a play with a bit of 1 & 1/4 " aluminium round to see roughly how it works out before I let my skills or lack of them loose on the turnable cold rolled steel I specifically purchased for the job.
 
Some time ago, Doubleeboy asked me for some pics of my tools but my camera was on loan for some time - I just got it back. I was sorely tempted to grind some new tools to show but decided to show a few of my oldest working tools instead. Two of these are very old and used and in need of regrinding, and my aluminum cutter is only a few months old.

Each of these tools is honed with a diamond hone after every use and show some marks but I assure you they are sharp enough to easily slice paper or a finger. Oh, and they cut metal well, too.

Shown here are my 15 year old Knife Tool, a cutter for tool steels/1144 steel, and an aluminum cutting tool:

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This is the top and side cutting edge of my cobalt Knife Tool. As you can see, its time to regrind it; most of the back rake has been ground off but it still cuts so well that it sort of justifies my laziness. This tool faces everything I put it to with a mirror finish and will cut a very tight, clean shoulder. It also can take a cut in thin work pieces so fine that the chips come off like dust. I made this tool about 15 years ago, never reground it and it still cuts like new.

IMG_4533.jpg IMG_4534.jpg

Here is my tool steel cutter. This tool is very old, probably 10 years since it saw a grinder, and should have been reground a long time ago. The tool marks on the top face are from my hone, not grind marks. The side and end relief angles and the side rake angles are all larger than normal to enhance the tool's performance in harder steels. As you can see, the back rake has been mostly honed off over time and needs to be re-established. Still, this tool will take a roughing cut in 1144 steel without work hardening it much, which allows a fine sizing or finishing cut. It has more mass in its overall shape to allow for the increased tool angles.

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Here is an Aluminum cutter I ground a few months ago. This tool has a general shape but since it is ground on a belt sander the rake angles look weird. When it is ground the belt is shifted off to the side of the platen by about 1/16"; this prevents the belt from being cut as I grind. Due to the extreme back rake angle of about 40 degrees the tool tends to push the belt back toward the center of the platen. As it does so, it cuts a curve into the side and back rake angles. The angles are correct but the shape is distorted; there is a curve rather than a definite step as we would normally see. This is not an issue for tools with normal amounts of back rake but on aluminum cutters, it can be. While this technicality exists, the tool cuts fine and this tool can take a very heavy cut while leaving a clean finish. I sharpen the side and end with a normal diamond hone but use a round diamond hone to hone the rake angles. You can see some residual grind marks on the top because I can't get them all out without altering the rake angles so I just get the edge razor-sharp and leave it at that. When the chips come off they curl tightly, which is nice.

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As I said, it was tempting to grind new tools so I could show off. I can actually grind a really pretty tool but that isn't what Doubleeboy asked for. These are some of my most frequently used working tools that are all modified to do what I want them to do. My other tools are also general purpose tools with varying amounts of modified relief and rake angles to suit different material classes.

I chose these tools because I wanted to point something out. All of them have highly modified rake and relief angles, or used to when they were new. The shape of the steel and aluminum cutters shown here have more mass to allow for these changes. That is, the side cutting edge angle is less acute than my normal general purpose shape would have. This is just my personal approach - when I increase relief and rake angles a lot then I add more mass in the tip to support those changes. This is especially true when the material being cut is hard, like my tool steel cutter, or when the rake and relief angles create a very positive angle at the tip which makes the tip more fragile, like my aluminum cutter. More mass adds strength.
 
Great photos mikey, thank you! I first stood in front of a lathe when I was in middle school shop class, close to 50 years ago, its safe to say I have been around the block once or twice. Yet when I have a chance to visit other folks shops its not their projects that first catch my attention its their hand ground cutters, then to hear what cutters are used in what materials. Anyone who wants to increase their understand of cutting would do well to consider your cutters and grind up one or two. If the newbies spent the time to understand hand ground technique instead of buying those dreadful 5 piece sets of Chinese carbide insert tools they would advance their skill set much quicker.



Thanks again,
michael
 
Thanks, Mike. Sorry it took so long to get these posted. I'll try to find the time to grind some new tools and when I do I will update these pics so you can see what the tools should actually look like. 10-15 years of wear on a tool is a bit much, I'm embarrassed to say.

I did want to encourage others, especially the newer hobbyists, to have a go at tool grinding. I think there is enough info in this thread and references to give you a fair shot at it. I'm not a tool grinding guru by any means but if I can help, let me know.
 
Great photos mikey, thank you! I first stood in front of a lathe when I was in middle school shop class, close to 50 years ago, its safe to say I have been around the block once or twice. Yet when I have a chance to visit other folks shops its not their projects that first catch my attention its their hand ground cutters, then to hear what cutters are used in what materials. Anyone who wants to increase their understand of cutting would do well to consider your cutters and grind up one or two. If the newbies spent the time to understand hand ground technique instead of buying those dreadful 5 piece sets of Chinese carbide insert tools they would advance their skill set much quicker.



Thanks again,
michael
I think it is the fear of not getting the grind right. I know I was leery of grinding my own HSS. And I had been grinding drill bits for many years. I think a company could do well that if they offered a set of preground HSS bits. This would also give new guys a chance to see a bit so they know how to grind their own and how it should look.
Mark
 
Mark,

I believe in the past and maybe currently some outfits like Sherline or Little Machine Shop, or Grizzly have sold bits that are already ground.

What I think a lot of guys miss when the start with carbide is the understanding of cutting action and forces that you gradually learn when you do it yourself. When you add a couple more degrees of relief under the front cutting edge and voila you go from rubbing and barely cutting to taking off material easily the light goes on in your brain. Then you experiment with nose radius and find the sweet spot between fine finish and chatter. Fool around with top rake, negative, neutral, positive, see the difference in power required to make a cut.

I completely agree that purchasing a set of pre ground bits and keeping them for models would be a good call for lots of folks. Then make your own versions of them and fool with the different parameters one at a time. Mikey's photos should help some folks if the use them as models. Not being afraid of failure is half of the challenge. Being willing to keep going between the grinder and lathe and only changing one thing at a time are the key IMO.

cheers
michael
 
Michael,
Yes, yes, all good points. I know I would either still be struggling or have given up if it wasn't for this group and some good you tube videos on grinding HSS tool bits. I'm no expert but I can make them cut.
 
Hey Mark, I had the very same idea - buy a preground set so I could learn how the tool should be ground. I bought Sherline's set and, over time, learned to match them. The problem is that the tip geometry on those tools is not what I consider "proper" but I didn't know that then. I do now.

I've thought long and hard about this and I'll tell you what would help me if I were starting out. I would want a guy to tell me what I'm doing at every single step of the way. I mean, how do I angle the tool rest and how to hold the tool bit in relation to the grinding media? I would want to know what each hand is doing; which one moves side to side and where the other puts the pressure to make the grinding media cut. What am I looking to create on every face I grind and why? The side and end faces are easy to grind. Its the top rake angles that are difficult for most guys and they are probably the most important angles on that tool so it has to be right. I would want to know how to set up the rake angles and how to feed the bit into the grinder to create them. If I knew all of that then grinding the tool would be easier, as would modifying those angles if I chose to do so.

I tried to do that in my MachinistBlog articles but I had a lot to cover and didn't put as much detail into the grinding part as I would have liked. If you guys think this might be something that would help then I can grind an actual tool and detail what I'm doing at every step of the process, complete with pictures and arrows and stuff. If that would help then let me know. I have to grind a new tool steel cutter anyway and I can take the pics as I do that.
 
Mikey,
I have got that all down. But it would be a good source for other guys that are starting out.
Mark
 
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