Knurling advice

If I come across something I'll be sure to let you know.

Thanks, Will.

I don't know if I want you to let me know! You are already making me think about spending somewhere between $250 and $360.00 on a knurler! Remember in that thread where I said the most fun we have is getting other guys to spend money on tools? Remember that? This is you doing that!!! Don't even think I don't know what you're up to. :)

When I get those rear set pegs done, I'll post a pic if I remember. At my age, I need to be careful about making promises because while my integrity is intact, my remembery isn't what it used to be.
 
Wait a second Mike, Will is just trying to get you to buy a knurler. You were trying to get me to buy a complete machine shop, lol.
(BTW, I was just at a restaurant last night in that highlighted circle on the Craigslist ads map.)
What is form or cut knurler?
I'd like to clarify a couple things here I am sort of getting.
For hard materials you make one pass. Correct?
So you literally have the correct amount of knurler pressure cranked down before you begin to turn?
And then you only turn to one rotation on the workpiece and done?
Tracking is keeping the knurling teeth in the previously cut tracks?
Double tracking is when the teeth cross partially over into another track, causing a messed up pattern?
Lastly, I'm getting the impression that it takes a whole lot more force to create the raised pattern than what I am doing.
With my micro machining equipment, I have to figure out how to REALLY crank down on the knurling tool and work piece, while at the same time keeping the tool in line with the work piece, meaning perpendicular to it, and keeping it top-dead-center to the work piece as well, and then rotate the work piece only one rotation, assuming my OD is perfect for the knurling teeth amount and size, and no other factors come into play. Correct?
 
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I picked up a Eagle Rock knock off a few years ago. It's excellent, probably not as good as an EAGLE ROCK, but it works great, is tight. I F'd up when trying to put different rollers in, I couldn't tell which side to push out the pins from... so in that respect probably a little inferior. But even with the damage I did, it was repairable and works great. My knurls improved a bit.. BUT
After learning that my knurls were still not what I wanted, I started using a calculator, and they are now where I want them. Not as talented as Will, but way better than b4. My standard knurls are crisp, pointed (where I have to file them to lose the points), and precise.

If you want better, calculate, and get a scissor knurler. If I buy rollers I can't see markings for (I go to farm shows, flea markets, and garage sales), what I do is put oil on the roller, and then roll it out on paper and count the lines per inch.
And now that I know who's king of knurling, if I have a question... Will, you the man!
 
Wait a second Mike, Will is just trying to get you to buy a knurler. You were trying to get me to buy a complete machine shop, lol.
(BTW, I was just at a restaurant last night in that highlighted circle on the Craigslist ads map.)
What is form or cut knurler?
I'd like to clarify a couple things here I am sort of getting.
For hard materials you make one pass. Correct?
So you literally have the correct amount of knurler pressure cranked down before you begin to turn?
And then you only turn to one rotation on the workpiece and done?
Tracking is keeping the knurling teeth in the previously cut tracks?
Double tracking is when the teeth cross partially over into another track, causing a messed up pattern?
Lastly, I'm getting the impression that it takes a whole lot more force to create the raised pattern than what I am doing.
With my micro machining equipment, I have to figure out how to REALLY crank down on the knurling tool and work piece, while at the same time keeping the tool in line with the work piece, meaning perpendicular to it, and keeping it top-dead-center to the work piece as well, and then rotate the work piece only one rotation, assuming my OD is perfect for the knurling teeth amount and size, and no other factors come into play. Correct?

Gotta' watch Will ... sneaky guy! In my own defense, I was just trying to help!

See this for an explanation of a cut knurler: https://www.accu-trak.com/holders_cuttype.html
The difference between cut knurling and displacement knurling is that the former process actually cuts or mills the knurl, while the latter process forms or displaces material to produce the knurl.

Some materials like stainless, titanium and high carbon steels will work harden if you even look at them. When you make a knurling pass on these materials, meaning you engage your knurling wheels to get a pattern and then run them down the work piece under power, it work hardens the surface. If you then try to make another pass you are doing it on a very hard surface and you will not be able to displace that material so you cannot get to full depth. To get around this, you either increase the pressure on the end of the work to get the pattern you need and then make a full-depth pass or you set it up on a scrap piece to set the knurler at the right setting and then knurl it in one pass. The point is to avoid making more than one pass on these materials; it won't give you a second chance.

When we say you make "a pass", we are referring to feeding the knurler down the length of a work piece axially, from the tailstock end towards the chuck. Most knurls are made this way, and the length you feed the knurler depends on your needs. Of course, this is done under power, which your lathe cannot do.

Yup, you got it. When the knurls track properly, the teeth fall into the same pattern. Double tracking will result in the teeth criss-crossing.

Knurling is not cutting; it is displacing or forming of the material. The knurls are literally moving material into a pattern; to form a groove the adjacent material must be raised. It takes a lot of pressure to displace material like this so yes, you need a knurler than can apply a lot of pressure. The alignment of the knurls is perpendicular to the work or nearly so and the knurls are ideally kept centered over the axis of the work, or nearly so. You apply enough pressure to create the pattern you want - either full depth so you get sharp points or partial depth so you get flattened points - and then rotate the work piece until you get the pattern you want or run it down the work piece if you need a longer knurl.

Hope this clears it up. You main limiting factor right now is your lathe. It is small, light, underpowered and not rigid enough to really knurl most materials. You might get away knurling aluminum or delrin but brass or anything harder is going to be difficult and frustrating. If you want to stay with small machines then consider getting something more robust. A Sherline or Taig machine might be a better option.
 
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Thanks Mike and All for the replies and advice.
Since I am not going to be making "passes", I think I will try using two vises to hold the workpiece and then see if this little scissors knurler is strong enough for me to tweak it down and displace some brass.
 
Thanks, Will.

I don't know if I want you to let me know! You are already making me think about spending somewhere between $250 and $360.00 on a knurler! Remember in that thread where I said the most fun we have is getting other guys to spend money on tools? Remember that? This is you doing that!!! Don't even think I don't know what you're up to. :)

When I get those rear set pegs done, I'll post a pic if I remember. At my age, I need to be careful about making promises because while my integrity is intact, my remembery isn't what it used to be.

Huh, whaddaya talking about, I dun know noting! ;)

Hey, I can at least try right? Yeah, remeber those damn TECO sets! I thought I didn't need one but apparently I do!

Yes, please do if you remember, I love to see stuff that people make!


Wait a second Mike, Will is just trying to get you to buy a knurler. You were trying to get me to buy a complete machine shop, lol.

rofl.gif
 
I picked up a Eagle Rock knock off a few years ago. It's excellent, probably not as good as an EAGLE ROCK, but it works great, is tight. I F'd up when trying to put different rollers in, I couldn't tell which side to push out the pins from... so in that respect probably a little inferior....

...And now that I know who's king of knurling, if I have a question... Will, you the man!

You bring up a good point that I forgot to mention. That's another difference between the Eagle Rock K1-201 & HD K1-44. The imports are clones of the K1-201. For the K1-201 the knurl pins are pressed in which is fine. The K1-44 uses set screws to hold the pin in, just loosen the set screw & the pins push right out. I like to change wheels often so that is another plus for me. But more importantly, when knurling hard materials you're better off using solid carbide pins. Trying to press in carbide pins on the K1-201 is not fun. It can cause a lot of frustration & carbide chips easily.

King, no not me, I'm not the king of anything. I'm just a hobby guy like many of you guess. I just get lucky! :)
 
I bought one of these a year or so ago and it is junk. Super flimsy.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006UHAB2E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's the difference between an import clone & the real Eagle Rock K1-201. Some clones are better than others though.

It can be improved though. Not sure how hard the arms are on the clones if at all. But you can bore and/or ream the pivot holes, then make a new pivot that fits tighter. Then harden the pivot. Add an additional nut on top of the adjuster for locking.

My K1-44 is hard hard hard, I tried milling down the shank with a HSS endmill when I first got it, it just laughed at the endmill. I ended up just getting an oversized holder for it.
 
MA - everything you need to know has already been said, I think - but I do a fair bit of knurling too. The point of the math is this: Think of the knurling wheel(s) and the work just like gears, They have to mesh. The "teeth" on the work have to be in the same place on the second revolution as on the 1st. If the work diameter is not correct, the knurling wheel teeth will be in a totally different position on the metal when it comes around again. You can easily see this by BARELY engaging the knurler. Spin the chuck 1 turn (or a little less) and you will see the hoped-for pattern. Now spin it one more turn. If your work diameter is correct, the 2nd revolution will have placed its marks directly over the 1st set - it should look the same (maybe a little deeper.) If NOT, you'll see a fresh set of marks in between the 1st ones. IF the diameter is wrong and you knurl, you will get a pattern but it will be finer, shallower and uglier than when you do it right.

I have the LMS scissor knurler and it works fine for me, but I bought it 10 or 15 years ago. At that time their calculator didn't work great, and if I remember correctly the stated pitch of the wheels was suspect. So I measured them myself. Easy. Hold one wheel of your knurler over a piece of paper and roll it along for a few inches. You will see a series of slashes. Measure how many there are in an inch. (Better yet, as they MIGHT be metric, measure for 3".) Now you now the number of lines per inch. I made an Excel sheet. If you know Excel - the formula to figure out the closest proper knurling diameter to the diameter you're starting with is =ROUND(INT(A1*B1*PI())/B1/PI(),3) where Column A is the original diameter and Column B is the LPI of the knurling wheel.

Here is the chart I keep in my toolbox for 3 sets of knurling wheels with pitches of 33, 22 and 14 LPI. If you check your wheels and they match you can use this chart.

Example - you want to knurl a piece of 0.500 stock with the 22 LPI wheel? Turn the stock to 0.492" first.


P.S. It doesn't take a lot of torque to knurl - if your lathe won't turn something is wrong.

I do mine at fairly low RPM. I barely engage the wheels (centered over the work), start the lathe (low RPM works for me but I've never tried higher speeds as someone suggested above), then tighten the clamping wheel - about as hard as I can with my fingers. (On aluminum, less than that. For steel? Might need more.) If I need to advance the carriage, I do so slowly. I've tried with lube and without - as long as I keep the wheels clean I haven't found it necessary (my experience is on Aluminum or brass).

Hope that helps.


knurling_diameters.png
 
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