Need mill adVise

[Dabbler]

So here goes. I started with an offshore 6" vise, and did a lot of great learning on it over 17 years - sold it to a friend, and he'll use it for the next 20 years. I graduated to a proven Taiwanese Kurt 633 clone, and that was great, and I love it, the extra width and the heavier construction. However I also later purchased a real Kurt DX6, and have a lot of experience on both plus a European vise on my 3rd mill as well as a 5" Chinese vise of moderate quality.

that being said:
a cheaper 250$ vise (especially if made in Taiwan) will get you there.
A 'real clone' of a Kurt will make your life a lot easier - stronger, freer movement and better clamping.
A real Kurt is in another class entirely. A joy to use. My day-to-day getter done'r...

My advise: avoid the temptation of the bargain. Someone here on the forum will sell you a real Kurt cheap - it'll be rusty or whatever, but you'd be better off than an unknown new one possibly made of Swiss cheese.

 

[sdelivery]

I suggest you get a used and worn one. It will work in the beginning....
You will tinker with it some and THEN you will know EXACTLY how much you want to spend.
Alot of work has been done with worn tooling and will continue to be.

 

[hman]

I've been using a Shars Tegara 6"vise for nearly a year now, and still love it. I've owned a used 6" Kurt, but sold it because it was too large for my previous mill (an RF-30 clone). One good thing about used Kurt vises is that Kurt does sell rebuild kits at a reasonable price, so if what you buy isn't too far gone, you can restore it.

 

[markba633csi]

To Shotgun: (post #27) On a cheap vise the movable jaw will tend to lift when tightening- this is no good. It's not like runout in a three jaw chuck where if you finish the part in one operation it's ok. With a mill vise you may have to remove and replace a part several times. You need to know the part will stay put and not rise when tightening the vise.
Kurt (and others) have a special pivot device which pulls the jaw down as it's tightened- but they also have good control of the outer dimensions
-Mark

 

[Shotgun]

To Shotgun: (post #27) On a cheap vise the movable jaw will tend to lift when tightening- this is no good. It's not like runout in a three jaw chuck where if you finish the part in one operation it's ok. With a mill vise you may have to remove and replace a part several times. You need to know the part will stay put and not rise when tightening the vise.
Kurt (and others) have a special pivot device which pulls the jaw down as it's tightened- but they also have good control of the outer dimensions
-Mark

The vice I just replaced was as you say. The moveable jaw was capture by a bolted on bar on each side, and had a lot of play (vertically and laterally). The $120, 6" replacement drives the moveable jaw with an angled piston that pulls it down as it pushes forward. It seems there are several solutions to the "rising jaw" problem, and are being incorporated into the cheaper devices.

I would like to note that the Chinesium of the '90s is not the Chinesium of the '20s. I remember how "made in Japan" was a mark of ridicule in the '80s, but had almost reversed by the '90s. It seems the same thing is happening with China, and I fully expect it to happen with Vietnam next, to be followed by a succession of African countries.

 

[Shotgun]

Being both a hobby machinist and working from home is a dangerous combination. I spent my lunch hour checking a vice.

The fixed jaw and the bed rise .002" going across the 6" width. I'm pretty sure some of that is in my table. There is no movement of the tenths indicator going front to back across the bed, for as wide as the jaws will open. To check lift, I put the dial indicator on the movable jaw and clamped down on 2" diameter round. From just touching to "don't crank that hard", it rose .002"

This is a $120 vice from eBay, shipped from Perth Amboy, NJ.

 

[WobblyHand]

My "cheap" vise had a similar problem. Moving jaw lift. It was about 0.002" lift at don't clamp too hard and 0.005" or more at pretty tight. This was after rebuilding it (grinding a new spherical bearing and milling the angle nut). Basically the vise was not repeatable. Prior to rebuild it was worse. Ended up with a 3" toolmakers vise, and the lift is around 0.0005". Yes, different beasts, but at least I could square a block precisely again. My rebuilt vise just isn't up to the task of metal machining.

When I get a new Kurt style vise, it will be from Kurt or Glacern. The Kurt is $519.95 for a DX6 and $509.95 for a DX4 and $45 for shipping from All Industrial. At least for the DX4, (the size more appropriate for my PM25) the base doesn't stick out behind the rear jaw assembly. To get the similar version for the Glacern, GPV-412 would cost $619 plus shipping. For those of us with a smaller mill, the rear vise stick out matters. Unless I can make a deal on a decent vise at Tuckahoe, think I'll be getting a Kurt. Not saying Glacern is bad, their normal 4" vise is $399, but it sticks out over an inch behind the jaw assembly. I've needed that inch, having previously bumped the vise into the column. If any of you find a better deal for a good vise, let me know. I'm looking for 4".

 

[lesrhorer]

A few reasons off the top of my head...
Companies go out of business. People die and their stuff gets sold. Guys sell off what they have to trade up for bigger/better. Someone might narrow the focus of their work - all milling for example. So why have a couple of expensive lathes and tooling or a surface grinder sitting unused.
Some guy's mill vise may be depreciated out tax wise so he sells it and buys a newer, better one.

Yeah, that was mostly rhetorical. I know these and quite a few other reasons can be a legitimate reason to sell a piece of high quality equipment, possibly even at a rather low price. I'm certainly not saying it is impossible to find a good deal on a gently used piece of equipment. It is also far from impossible that good deal is because the vice has been dropped, left out in the weather, run into by the mill, or used like an anvil. There is really no way to know for certain.

 

[lesrhorer]

Jaw lift is one of the most common issues in a vise. Kurt and Kurt clones use angled mating surfaces between the mobile jaw and the lead screw clamp. This produces a downward force on the jaw equal to the clamping force, which helps prevent the jaw from lifting. If the rear anvil can be detached from the vise, rather than the rear anvil and the vice bed being a single piece, then there can easily be all sorts of issues with the vise, including the rear jaw not being acceptably perpendicular to the bed, not parallel to the mobile jaw, not perfectly rigid, etc.

By the way, one can make up for some jaw lift (or a non-parallel work piece) by inserting a piece of round stock between the work piece and the mobile jaw.

 

[WobblyHand]

Good clear pictures go a long way to clearing up issues like that. If you can't get clear pictures, or can't see it in person, pass on it. Have to say, some abuse signs can be subtle, so one does have to look carefully. As usual, buyer beware.