What makes a 'tool room' lathe?

[Beckerkumm]

In the old monarch catalog, the engine and toolroom machines had the same bed, gears, and bearings. The toolroom had an extra rod for the lead screw reverse on the apron rather than a lever on the headstock. The toolroom came with a few more options but the builds were the same.

As to swing, the high end old lathes, engine or toolroom generally were designed so the width of the bed was equal or more than the advertised swing. Many old machines, included in the 10ee, had an actual swing 2.5" greater than advertised. For lighter duty ( a relative thing on those heavy casting machines ) Monarch made lathes with added height in 2" increments. They were labeled differently because the swing no longer matched the bed width.

Dave

 

[SouthernChap]

Skimming through old Clausing catalogs I'm not seeing that they differentiated any of their lathe models as a tool room lathe. The only reference to tool room is general marketing speak saying their lathes are suitable for a variety of tasks including production, tool room, repair, mechanical services etc.

From a 1975 catalog a 5904 is a 12x24" variable speed lathe with a clutch and brake, and 2hp 3 phase motor.

Warning: speculation and thoughts pulled out of my arse below!

Did Clausing sell that model in that colour? I have the (probably incorrect) impression that Clausing lathes tended to be grey. If they didn't, it means someone has painted the lathe.

Okay, this lathe has signs of use over the paint, but if I wanted to sell a shagged out old lathe to an unwary buyer, I might paint it, chuck some oil over it/dirty it up a bit.

Or maybe if I'd bought a lathe that had been painted to distract from it's negative aspects and after using it for a bit, it turned out that I was the sucker and wanted to move it on to another sucker...

 

[Choiliefan]

I would expect a tool room lathe to have a taper attachment.

 

[Ultradog MN]

I have what I think? is a toolroom lathe.
A Monarch 12CK.
My friend has the same machine but his is a 12KK. They were built 2 years apart.
His is newer.
They are nearly identical but here are some doo dads and gizmos mine has that his does not have.
Travadials on both the carriage and the cross slide.
Feed reversing lever on the right side of the carriage.
Solid stop on the the carriage.
Feed/lead auto stop on the carriage.
Forward and reverse from the factory.
His was added.
1000 rpm spindle speed.
His is 750.

Both swing 14 1/2" X 30"
Both are 5 hp.
Both have clamp handle to move the tailstock - ie, no clamp nuts.
Both have clamp handle for the quill.
Both have taper attachments.
Both have Zero stop on the cross slide dial (for threading)
His has #4 MT tailstock taper. Mine is 3 MT.
I would guess? his is a standard lathe.

 

[Aaron_W]

Warning: speculation and thoughts pulled out of my arse below!

Did Clausing sell that model in that colour? I have the (probably incorrect) impression that Clausing lathes tended to be grey. If they didn't, it means someone has painted the lathe.

Okay, this lathe has signs of use over the paint, but if I wanted to sell a shagged out old lathe to an unwary buyer, I might paint it, chuck some oil over it/dirty it up a bit.

Or maybe if I'd bought a lathe that had been painted to distract from it's negative aspects and after using it for a bit, it turned out that I was the sucker and wanted to move it on to another sucker...

Certainly a potential red flag, but there are other possibilities for the odd color. It seems to be fairly common to see machines from schools painted a non-standard color, often institutional greens (light green colors that I associate with old hospitals, schools, prisons etc).

I have seen enough examples that it makes me wonder if some companies did this to identify machines that they perhaps offered schools at a discount. Maybe just something many schools did to keep the machinery looking fresh and those green colors were paints they had available at the school district warehouse.

 

[ltlvt]

Here is my answer. "I DON'T KNOW! We had 2 Hardinge HLVH Super Precision lathes in our TOOL ROOM. I bought one of them brand new in the late 80's and tooled up with DRO -Collet Closer and full set of Collets The final price was a little over $30,000. I don't think Hardinge even makes them any more but the last price I saw was North of $60,000. New condition they were guaranteed to hold .0002. But we could all agree that is with an experienced Toolmaker using it that themselves were capable of repeated .0002 tolerances. The tool makers that worked for me could. Both those lathes were still in MINT condition when we closed the plant in 2007. The reason being is they were used only by those toolmakers and were not what I would consider Roughing Lathes. Had I not have been living in Mexico at the time they were sold at Auction I would have one of them today. But once they left our TOOL ROOM who knows what condition they were in. Just loading and unloading machines that precise can damage them if IDOTS handle them. Now back to the 5904. 5900 series is a basic type of Clausing lathe. As has already been stated it is a 12x24 meaning it is 12" swing and 24" center to center. Mine is a 5913 which is basically the same machine but with a 36" center length. Both have Hydraulic Reeves style variable speed control. And as mentioned are a high wear area but when in good condition are a terrific way to control the spindle speed. Motor always run at full rpm therefore max torque at any speed. I completely rebuilt my 5913 including the Variable speed drive. A word of caution in trusting what the seller says. Also what the machine is badged as. All these used machines have their own story to tell. Mine is badged 5913 but is really a 5914. Only difference is a 5913 had a 1 1/2 hp single phase motor and the 5914 had a 2 HP 3 phase motor. Mine has a 3 phase 2 HP motor so it is actually a Frankenlathe. Meaning it has parts from more than one lathe on it. If the seller wants to sell it bad enough he will allow the prospective buyer to test run it and by that I mean take some micrometers and dial indicators with you to check things like taper, TIR (spindle run out) Indicator also used to check slop in saddle backlash in the cross slide lead screw and of course the longitudinal lead screw. If all pans out to be a good useable lathe at a good price then I think you would like the 5904 if you are a Hobbyist like I think you are. And that is my answer to your question.

 

[ltlvt]

Now that everyone has had a shot at defining what a "TOOLROOM" lathe is. I am officially asking "What is the difference in a TOOLROOM and a MACHINE SHOP ?

 

[SouthernChap]

Certainly a potential red flag, but there are other possibilities for the odd color. It seems to be fairly common to see machines from schools painted a non-standard color, often institutional greens (light green colors that I associate with old hospitals, schools, prisons etc).

I have seen enough examples that it makes me wonder if some companies did this to identify machines that they perhaps offered schools at a discount. Maybe just something many schools did to keep the machinery looking fresh and those green colors were paints they had available at the school district warehouse.

Ah good point, Mr Pete mentioned this recently I think.

In the UK, I don't think we ever had a culture of repainting machine tools in/for schools. Partly because the schools would have seen it as a waste of time and money and partly because the period of widespread existence of machine tools in schools (well, state schools anyway) was fairly brief; my guess would be from the 1950's to 1980's.

Technical colleges were not markedly better funded than schools really so they'd probably have had the same perspective.

All of the above is just my impression of UK education culture during that period, by the way, I could be talking our of my arse!

 

[ShagDog]

This thread in another forum explains it as to a South Bend: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...heavy-10-tool-room-lathe.412373/#post-4059708 (particularly post #7)

 

[Round in circles]

I have to admit, I get drooling for a behemoth toolroom type lathe.

Hope this does not contravene things in the rules book .

If you can afford it and arrange the transport etc. my friend has two ex tool room lathes that were used to manufacture the prototype turbine parts for Concorde's Rolls Royce engines and landing gear, among other things. Seem to recall him saying only five were made
If you are interested PM me your email & details & I'll pass them on .
We are in south Wales United kingdom AKA GB