What makes a 'tool room' lathe?

[FortyFivePalms]

Hello folks,

Continuing on my casual search for a lathe, stumbled upon a Clausing 12 x 24 model #5904 that is listed as a 'tool room' lathe.
This is not the first time I have heard this reference - but I am curious: What makes a lathe a 'tool room' lathe?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Round in circles]

Usually a very high quality precision lathe where prototypes & one off's are made in the tool room on it .

Many will be in pristine condition because the average machinist will never have had access to them , only very skilled engineers & tool makers who knew their trade got to play with them , as they tended to be a lot more expensive & accurate than a production lathe ,

Buyer beware ............people tell lies when selling lathes so if buying do a lot of home work

 

[mmcmdl]

5904 is really not considered a "toolroom" lathe but it is top quality . Only issues are the VS components go up . If I could find one , I would buy any 5900 series today .

 

[benmychree]

Accuracy; tool room lathes are made to alignment tolerances that are half of those that engine lathes are made to.
Size: toolroom lathes are generally made in 14" swing X 40" center distance.
Acessories: toolroom lathes will usually be equipped with several accessories and features that an engine lathes may not be equipped with, such as taper attachments, reverse to leadscrew on carriage, thread stop, relieving attachment, spindle reverse on carriage, high/low range of speeds, and many other accessories too numerous to remember ---. They need not be frail machines as may be common, I remember one where I apprenticed, a Lodge & Shipley, that was !4" Nominal swing and about 8 fy between centers, it had all the features noted above, but was totally worn out, being of WW-2 vintage.

 

[markba633csi]

I read somewhere that in the case of South Bend the leadscrew was made to a higher standard of accuracy than the regular one

 

[Aaron_W]

You will probably not get a clear answer. Actual machinists are going to give you a practical answer as to what was used in their shops as a tool room lathe.

Then you get to marketing, many brands sold a better quality lathe with improved tolerances. Not a specific model, just a version of their standard models that had better quality control. Example South Bend offered many of their lathes in a tool room version, which simply meant it had been inspected and met higher standards than their "regular" lathes. They offered this across their range from the 9" to 16".

When it comes to used lathes "tool room lathe" is often just code like "rare", and "vintage" to indicate that they believe their particular lathe is worth more than all the others on the market.

 

[Beckerkumm]

Old high end machines such as Monarch used the same accuracy but put the options mentioned above on lathes designated toolroom. Some companies made higher speeds standard and a few may have used different bearing designs or at least different preloads to achieve the higher speeds. It was often more about marketing and options than quality. Dave

 

[Jake M]

Hello folks,

Continuing on my casual search for a lathe, stumbled upon a Clausing 12 x 24 model #5904 that is listed as a 'tool room' lathe.
This is not the first time I have heard this reference - but I am curious: What makes a lathe a 'tool room' lathe?

Thanks in advance!

I wouldn't get too hung up on "tool room" lathes.

When they were new, some of the items mentioned, more toys, more accuracy on this spec or that spec, they were designed for a purpose that went beyond production work.

Assuming that we're talking about older stuff, production machines turned out bearing fits, slip fits, press fits- They did what needed to be done to turn out excellent final products This doesn't imply that production machines were "sloppy". On the contrary, in their day, they were good.
When the equivalent tool room machine was made to a better tolerance, you need to not loose perspective. As accurate as it takes to do what is asked of it is pretty accurate. If you said a tool room lathe was made to half of any given tolerance, it's NOT twice as accurate. It's small numbers, asymptotically approaching no error, (which in the real world will never happen). Dividing that error of a "regular" lathe is SUCH a small amount....

For a NEW lathe, a tool room spec might be a lot nicer. For a USED lathe, the starting difference (in the accuracy department) is SO small, that the wear and overall condition will dictate how good or poor a lathe might be in actual use, or how much "fixing" it might need. Or in other words, when measuring five, ten, twenty, fifty, or however many years of wear, the initial tolerances are so small that they'll get lost in the noise of the actual wear. And in the "extra toys" department, there's a similar problem. Once the machine is used, the question is not "what extra toys did it come with", but rather "what toys come with the actual specimen that is currently for sale. A lathe that "came with" a collet closer, collet set, and a taper attachment is not worth a dollar more than the same lath without those toys, UNLESS the stuff is still there and functional. And likewise, a production (or workshop) lathe that did not come with those toys, but has been equipped with them... Well, that's worth something.

So yeah... Take the "tool room" thing for what it is today, and not what it was.

And while you didn't ask, I'm saying anyhow.... If I didn't already have a smaller lathe that suits me, if I had enough space, and if the price fell within my budget... I'd be pushing people aside for the first crack at assessing the overall condition of just about ANY lathe from that series..... If they're in good shape, they're good machines.

 

[benmychree]

Back in the day, a chip pan was a toolroom lathe standard, didn't affect accuracy, but kept the toolroom tidy --- engine lathes of the period usually were without chip pans, swarf just hit the floor.

 

[Aaron_W]

For a NEW lathe, a tool room spec might be a lot nicer. For a USED lathe, the starting difference (in the accuracy department) is SO small, that the wear and overall condition will dictate how good or poor a lathe might be in actual use, or how much "fixing" it might need.

Good point, starting point is important to consider, but current condition and tooling is much more important.

A "tool room" lathe that was used commercially for decades, then demoted to use by random machine operators, sold to a less careful owner, then spent a decade of neglect in an unheated garage, and had all the tooling vanish through multiple garage sales before showing up at an estate sale is worth much less than a "regular" lathe sold new to a retired machinist who wiped it down daily with a clean diaper, and has every accessory known to man stored safely in a climate controlled work space and only used it on Sundays to make aluminum toothpicks.