Tools à la Chinois?

[erikmannie]

I think PM, if it be Precision Matthews, is based in Taiwan. I suppose it is possible they might source some castings from China, but I doubt it. There are all sorts of reasons a Taiwan company would not want to be depending on anything Chinese.

That said, it is still an Asian import. The quality norm is reputed to be better than the usual Chinese import, as is the support via the dealer(s) in USA.

PM is Precision Matthews. They are based in Coreonapolis, Pennsylvania. They offer machines either from the PRC for economy (i.e. low cost entry) or from Taiwan for precision, build quality & durability.

I bought 2 (mid-sized and small) mainland Chinese machines from them and 2 large Taiwanese machines from them. All of the machines that I bought from PM had a factory installed DRO.

Their customer service and support is higher than anybody would expect. This was greatly appreciated on my part because I am relatively new to the hobby.

 

[erikmannie]

I have had pleasant experiences with tooling & machines from Taiwan, Japan and South Korea.

I really appreciate it when the manufacturer spends more time & money in order to provide a durable and precise tool.

 

[pontiac428]

Very few of my tools are Chinese (these days). Just like how I bought albums twice to get CDs that I already owned on cassette, I've replaced the inferior carp as I could afford to and as opportunities dictate. I'm basically down to a chinese shop press, blast cabinet, band saw, and "cold-style" chop saw.

The first three do the job well enough. I'd like a handier press someday. The blast cabinet has mods. The HF band saw cut perfectly out of the box and still does, so no complaints (it's a workhorse).

The last one is a new tool; an Evolution chop saw. It's made in china, but for now it's exclusive to the USA designer and definitely quality-spec'd. The price point was surprising, surely due to the country of origin choice. The first time I saw one on display at my local Praxair dealer, I expected it to be a $1200 saw. Their price was MSRP, which was really good, so I went VFR direct to the manufacturer's web site, found a promotion, and got the fancy folding base (beefy) and both ferrous and non-ferrous blades delivered for a bit over half of what I expected the tool to sell for bare when I first discovered it. The company has really taken off in the last year, apparently their business model works.

Baileigh is another company that has high-spec parts made in Asia, but they are deceptive and cryptic about their imported parts. They take credit for pouring their own castings on their web page, yet you visit their two sites on google street view, and they are warehouses, not factories. The stuff they made in the US was once their old manual draw bender and stuff when they were a startup. The buildings they own aren't equipped with the power to run the row of CNC machines it would take just to make their bender dies. They don't have a single vent system that would support a spray booth, so how do they paint all the "USA-assembled" products? I admit to having done some investigative digging on Baileigh after reading their manufacturing claims. They obviously contract or import everything. I wish they were transparent about it. Oh well, I can make my own bender dies now anyway.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

PM is Precision Matthews. They are based in Coreonapolis, Pennsylvania. They offer machines either from the PRC for economy (i.e. low cost entry) or from Taiwan for precision, build quality & durability.

I bought 2 (mid-sized and small) mainland Chinese machines from them and 2 large Taiwanese machines from them. All of the machines that I bought from PM had a factory installed DRO.

Their customer service and support is higher than anybody would expect. This was greatly appreciated on my part because I am relatively new to the hobby.

I have 2 Chinese machines, bought them expecting to need modifications but also.expected to be able o reach a certain accuracy level. Both came from Precision Mathews, neither was a disappointment, both were exactly what I expected. I would recommend PM to a friend.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

Very few of my tools are Chinese (these days). Just like how I bought albums twice to get CDs that I already owned on cassette, I've replaced the inferior carp as I could afford to and as opportunities dictate. I'm basically down to a chinese shop press, blast cabinet, band saw, and "cold-style" chop saw.

The first three do the job well enough. I'd like a handier press someday. The blast cabinet has mods. The HF band saw cut perfectly out of the box and still does, so no complaints (it's a workhorse).

The last one is a new tool; an Evolution chop saw. It's made in china, but for now it's exclusive to the USA designer and definitely quality-spec'd. The price point was surprising, surely due to the country of origin choice. The first time I saw one on display at my local Praxair dealer, I expected it to be a $1200 saw. Their price was MSRP, which was really good, so I went VFR direct to the manufacturer's web site, found a promotion, and got the fancy folding base (beefy) and both ferrous and non-ferrous blades delivered for a bit over half of what I expected the tool to sell for bare when I first discovered it. The company has really taken off in the last year, apparently their business model works.

Baileigh is another company that has high-spec parts made in Asia, but they are deceptive and cryptic about their imported parts. They take credit for pouring their own castings on their web page, yet you visit their two sites on google street view, and they are warehouses, not factories. The stuff they made in the US was once their old manual draw bender and stuff when they were a startup. The buildings they own aren't equipped with the power to run the row of CNC machines it would take just to make their bender dies. They don't have a single vent system that would support a spray booth, so how do they paint all the "USA-assembled" products? I admit to having done some investigative digging on Baileigh after reading their manufacturing claims. They obviously contract or import everything. I wish they were transparent about it. Oh well, I can make my own bender dies now anyway.

I would like to rebuild another old Bridgeport in the future; but, I really do not want it to be the only mill I have during or after the build. I have a dream of converting my new mill to a CNC some day but that is years down the road.

 

[WaltDizzy]

When making a decision as to whether to buy used USA made or imported machines. I considered the possibility of buying a used machine that had unknown defects where my time would be consumed with trying to make things right vs. buying a new import machine with documented shortcomings which could be corrected.

With the exception of an Atlas Craftsman 6x18 lathe that I bought in 1970, all my machines have been new Asian machines. I have done some modifications on all of them but have had no serious concerns with any of them. In an old used machine, replacement of defective parts can be a major issue, With new machines, parts are usually available. When you buy a used machine, it is usually "as is" and any hidden problems become your responsibility. With a new machine from a reputable dealer, you have your warranty and customer service to make thing right.

I have no quarrel with people who want to restore old machines. However, at this point I have to question whether the point of restoring a machine tool for me is the particular rabbit hole I want to occupy.

I bought a 1941 Monarch 10EE about 7 years ago. Shortly after that, a logjam in a completely unrelated project cleared up, and suddenly I had a lot less time to be at home than I had anticipated. So, what started out as a fascinating way to educate myself and get a highly capable machine for a bargain price turned into an obligation that I was lacking the time and energy to complete.

I'm in a place now where it appears that everything will work out pretty well. But getting here has been difficult, and I would not criticize anyone who just wants a tool to get a job done, and perhaps does not have the time or money to restore a glorious old gem.

 

[Ropetangler]

The "prejudice" you speak of is from the experience and the disappointment with the quality of the Asian machines we've purchased then had to repair/modify just to get them to work properly. I can't count the number of posts about all the "mods" that have been needed to get acceptable cuts from HF bandsaws. They currently run about $375.00. For $500.00 I was able to purchase a well-cared for somewhat larger Startrite saw.

The saw I purchased was bult in the 1980's and spent 20 years working in an industrial setting before I purchased it. It will easily cut to within +/- .003" even at its advanced age. I've been using it on a daily basis for another 20+ years and the only thing it's needed so far is a few blades and a $3.00 gear box seal.

I keep hearing about the possible pitfalls of buying used iron, and in the next sentence read about all the work that had to be made to get a new out of the box Asian machine to work properly. Over the years I've looked at hundreds of used machines and taken home a couple dozen. I assess each and every one of them as to what I feel they will need to run properly. In every case the time spent on the assessment end has been paid back many times over. By the time I purchase a machine I'm relatively sure what the final cost will be to have it up and running in the shop. Again, in every case the final cost of the machines I've purchased has been a fraction of what it would have cost to buy a comparable size new Asian counterpart, and I'm quite sure every one of the ones I've purchased will last longer.

I must admit one of my latest purchases may have been built in Tiawan. The Baileigh cold saw I purchased last year was supposedly made in the USA in 2011. While it may have been assembled here many of the parts appear to be of Taiwanese origin. In any case I purchased it at what I would consider scrap prices with a guarantee from the dealer that if I couldn't get it up and running, he would refund my money. In the end all turned out well. It needed a good cleaning and about $150.00 worth of new parts. I now have another working machine for less than $500.00. Like most machines it isn't all that's necessary to put it to work. On this machine blades seem to be a major expense. I was able to find a few new ones at $50.00 a copy, but that was pure dumb a** luck. They normally run between $150.00 and $300.00 per copy. With a total investment of less than $750.00 it should be good to go for several years to come.

I am not surprised that your Startrite saw has performed well and that you are very pleased with it. Startrite and other manufacturers like Do-All were quality American manufacturers, but their products were not cheap back in their day. The comparison of your Startrite to a cheap HF bandsaw, is a bit like comparing a low cost economy car like Chrysler Neon say, to a well used Mercedes or Caddy of around 20 years of age. Provided that the older cars had been kept away from salted roads and they had been properly serviced during their lifetimes, I would expect them to far surpass the newer but cheaper model.
The sticker shock of a new Startrite or saw of similar quality would keep most of us away but fortunately for you, good and inexpensive used industrial machines are relatively plentiful it seem in the USA, but sadly not here in Australia where I live. Having said that I have been fortunate to acquire a used (but not very much) DSG lathe with loads tooling for Au$ 7K + another $4K to get it shifted half way across the country to me. It had spent its time in the toolroom of a CSIRO establishment (possibly similar to a MIT toolroom). I have not been disappointed.
Taiwan has a reputation for quality products, on a par with other advanced countries like the US, Britain and The EU countries, so I would not be concerned about quality issues in Taiwanese tools unduly.
I guess that what it comes down to is that if you need a machine right now, then a Chinese import will probably get you going if you don't have the budget for a higher end machine. Over time you can improve it by scraping in the bed and carriage of a lathe or shimming the wheels of a bandsaw to get the tracking right, and in time you can get them cutting pretty straight and true.
On the other hand if you have the skill, time and inclination, you can look around and find an older industrial machine, and rebuild it as necessary to suit your requirements. There are costs and compromises either way you go, be it time, money or even ultimate satisfaction, but it has to be said that China has provided machines at a price point that The West never has, and that has allowed many of us to pursue our hobby that under other circumstance, the opportunity would have been denied.
Good to hear that your new blades for the cold saw were priced right for you, they are of course consumables, and given enough work they will need to be replaced at some time in the future, no matter what the origin of the saw.
I hope that you and everyone else on this forum have had a safe and enjoyable Easter, as I have, and I wish you all, all the best.

 

[graham-xrf]

I am not surprised that your Startrite saw has performed well and that you are very pleased with it. Startrite and other manufacturers like Do-All were quality American manufacturers, but their products were not cheap back in their day. The comparison of your Startrite to a cheap HF bandsaw, is a bit like comparing a low cost economy car like Chrysler Neon say, to a well used Mercedes or Caddy of around 20 years of age. Provided that the older cars had been kept away from salted roads and they had been properly serviced during their lifetimes, I would expect them to far surpass the newer but cheaper model.

If one has the space for it, and the mighty means to move it, then, then a Do-All anything, put in reasonable condition, is likely to do everything you could want, and also outlast you. Yes - The best vehicle I ever owned is a Mercedes estate model, and I still have it.

YouTube contributor Steve Summers favors uncompromising American precision old iron, repaired, restored, and modified as necessary. Names like Cincinnati, and Do-All is what is in his shop. Maybe it's easier for USA folk to find and acquire such good used kit. Options in UK are much more limited, and I suspect it may be the same in Australia. Oz is a Pacific sort of place, trading strongly with most countries between Darwin and China. There was a time when I had the pick of European stuff, but that has been scuppered since 2018.

Here is the sort of stuff Steve Summers likes..

 

[projectnut]

I can see everyone's point as to which machines they have chosen. I was lucky enough to work for 20+ years for a company that had purchased high quality equipment long before I started there. Names like Leblond, American, Tree, DoAll, Cincinnati, South Bend, and Bridgeport were the only ones in the shop. They were kept in like new condition and were well tooled. While I didn't realize it at the time, I did get spoiled learning to operate machines of this caliber.

I lucked out again when it was time to outfit my own shop. It just so happened at that point in time the company decided to close down a few of their remote shops. It was my duty to dispose of the equipment. The rules were that all machines had to be offered to other remaining shops before they could be sold on the open market. The catch however was that they had to be accepted at the book value carried by the shop that was closing.

The last caveat was sort of a catch 22. In those days all the shops had a budget sufficient to have their machines refurbished at regular intervals. Nearly all the machines were in like new condition and carried a price tag reflecting it. In the end there were a few pieces that were way overpriced compared to what an identical new piece of equipment would cost. None of the remaining shops were willing to pay 80% of the price of a new machine for one that was 20+ years old regardless of the condition.

When all was said and done there were a few pieces of equipment that went unsold. At that point I was told to call the scrappers and get a bid for hauling them away. To a one the scrappers could care less about the condition of the machinery. Their only interests were the materials they were made of and the total weight. I was a bit shocked when the final bids came it. I contacted my boss and several other higher ups in the company and asked if they were really willing to let the machines go this way or whether it would be better for me to contact used equipment dealers.

The resounding answer was to get rid of the machinery quickly because the property was being sold and there was no time to look for other alternatives. At that point I asked if I could buy the leftovers, and what the price would be. I was told that if I could remove the remaining machines by the end of the month I could have them for the same price the scrappers were offering. Needless to say, I jumped at the opportunity and made arrangements to get the machinery moved. I still have every one of the machines I purchased from the company and was able to get a few more over time.

So Yes, my situation was probably far different than most, and I got spoiled along the way. Along those lines high quality used equipment is still available here in the Midwest. Things aren't quite as plentiful as they were 20+ years ago, and the prices are somewhat higher, but machines are still available at a fraction of the cost of new.

 

[vtcnc]

Quick PSA for members here...we are a NO POLITICS site so you have been fairly warned. That's our rule and one of the reasons why people sign up here and one of the rules that we enforce without any debate.

I will be cleaning up this thread as it progresses.