Kinda going off Chinese import stuff..

[Aaron_W]

Sometimes my thoughts wander.
I’m reading through these posts, then my host mentions $20 per day. I think back to Henry Ford’s ridiculous $5 a day wage. He made a lot of corporate enemies on that move.
When these company managers report back to their CEO’s and the CEO reports to his stock holders, a long term vision is lost.
Quick profits to boost stock value seems to be the way of the world these days.

I don’t think hard work, a long term vision for your employer and a feeling of pride at the end of the day for what you accomplished will ever be popular again.
I’m not suggesting bringing back the sweat shops of the early 20th century when some of our machines were made.
There is a real difference between my 1960’s Delta band saw and the harbor freight copy.
When you look at the castings on my 1970’s Made in England lathe and the B&S surface grinder then compare the fit and finish on a modern Jet drill press or Grizzly Jointer. There is a significant difference.
Do they all do a good job? In my experience, yes.

So what’s my point? The world has changed and the old ways aren’t coming back. Maybe that’s a good thing? I’m not so sure.

Agree a lot of bad gets glossed over when looking at "the good old days". Some has changed for the better, some maybe not. Standard of living is generally higher today, and people are living longer but is living longer really worth it when you have to hear about the Kardashions all the time?

I'm a Henry Ford fan, he was a flawed individual but on the whole I think he really was trying to make the world a better place. He gets kind of dumped on when looked at from a modern view point. The $5/day wage, 8 hour work week and the Henry Ford Trade School alone show more concern for others than most multi-millionaires. Many of his darker aspects were shared by society at large.

 

[Charles scozzari]

Not picking on you. However, being a fan of irony....

You weigh in on not buying china machines then list the ones you bought
I posted in the "What did you buy today thread" that I had recently bought a new Wahlstrom Float Lock drill vise. Now made by Eagle Rock Industries in Bath, Pennsylvania.
I could have bought two cheap China knock-offs for what I paid for it.
But...
I stuck to my principles and bought the good USA one instead.

Hi, I know you're not picking on me, but I made my decision after looking at American lathes that came from production shops and had seen better days, or were offered up in lieu of being scrapped. Others were on the west coast and that was out of the question because you would be buying sight unseen plus the shipping cost. As for the R/F radial arm, at $173.00 I couldn't pass it up. So an import lathe in my situation just made more sense for me to do. Thank's for you're reply

 

[Winegrower]

It's amusing, I suppose, that China has become such a manufacturing and exporting powerhouse while many people say "China makes junk". Remember that quality means "conformance to specifications". "Junk" comes about because buyers, say US buyers, perceive that they need to meet a price point and work with suppliers to meet that given these specifications. It's simply the case that most Chinese products meet specifications, and hence rely on sellers to ensure that these specifications meet expectations. So you could say "buyers specify junk" and be more accurate.

I was responsible at one point for a 36 track magnetic recording head. There was only one place on the planet, China, where we could in a few weeks have literally 7,500 workers assembling these heads, meeting our cost and performance specs.

I don't bash China particularly, though I have been in a Cadmium plating shop in Shenzhen, where a greenish smoke filled the whole interior. I started coughing uncontrollably and had to exit. These workers did a whole shift in there, no protective equipment at all. They have OSHA-type work to do, which will affect costs and prices. Now in many cases China is too expensive and other "Emerging Tigers" have to fill the bill.

My point is that it's us as consumers that ultimately drive the resolution of "quality" vs. cost, and so they frequently go by the motto "nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public".

Edit: As a random example, I recently needed a 100KV power supply, on my own dime. US suppliers, of which there were few, were in the $5K range, never got back to me, made pricing a mysterious process involving quotes and (you hope) calls from sales staff. But through Alibaba, I got overnight quotes to my spec from three sources, direct email contacts to the sales contact and in a couple days I ordered exactly what I wanted, custom, for less than $2K delivered. It was quoted for 30 day delivery, and beat that slightly. It's a beautiful product, and I'm a very happy customer. Of course I'd prefer to buy US...just couldn't do it, not only for price, but in some areas China has learned to market to us better than we can.

 

[Aaron_W]

Hi, I know you're not picking on me, but I made my decision after looking at American lathes that came from production shops and had seen better days, or were offered up in lieu of being scrapped. Others were on the west coast and that was out of the question because you would be buying sight unseen plus the shipping cost. As for the R/F radial arm, at $173.00 I couldn't pass it up. So an import lathe in my situation just made more sense for me to do. Thank's for you're reply

There seems to be this idea that buying a USA made machine sold 75 years ago, somehow helps industry in the USA today, it really doesn't.

I commented on this on the other made in China thread, but you can buy a Chinese 14x40 from Grizzly or PM for $7000-8000, or a Taiwanese 14x40 for around $11,000. Very few USA made manual lathes anymore, I found one a Standard Modern which sells for $25,000. Looking at a 1958 South Bend catalog, their 14.5x36 lathe sold for $2134 in 1958, adjusted for inflation that would be about $21,000.

For a business that might make sense to spend 2-3x as much, but how many hobby guys or part time shops have that kind of budget?

I very much doubt many hobbyists were buying the larger South Bend lathes "back in the day", most were probably buying the smaller 6-10" light duty lathes if they had the budget for new, or if they needed a larger lathe they shopped around for some 50-60 year old retired flat belt machine from the turn of the century.

Atlas / Craftsman lathes get a lot grief for their inexpensive construction, but in 1960 Sears sold the Atlas made 6" lathe for $175 ($1700 today), or the Atlas made 12x24" lathe for $348 ($3380) with change gears or $435 ($4200) with QCGB, the 12x36 version cost $389 ($3800) or $475 ($4600) with a QCGB. The cabinet with underdrive was an additional $125 ($1200).

The cheapest South Bend 9C was a 9x17" that cost $290 ($2880) in 1958, the long bed 9x34" cost $372 ($3700), the 9A with QCGB and power cross feed that everybody wants today cost $466-548 ($4640-5450). Yes the 9A bench lathe cost as much as the full boat 12x36" Craftsman.

People wonder why there are so many "crummy" Craftsman change gear lathes around, its because that is what most guys with a lathe in the garage could afford.


Buying good enough is not a new concept, it was around long before manufacturing was shipped overseas. Back then people had Craftsman, today we have China.

 

[graham-xrf]

Sometimes my thoughts wander.
I’m reading through these posts, then my host mentions $20 per day. I think back to Henry Ford’s ridiculous $5 a day wage. He made a lot of corporate enemies on that move.
When these company managers report back to their CEO’s and the CEO reports to his stock holders, a long term vision is lost.
Quick profits to boost stock value seems to be the way of the world these days.

This may be why Elon Musk has sought to buy back shares in Tesla, and outright took all of Twitter out of the hands of the gamblers.

I don’t think hard work, a long term vision for your employer and a feeling of pride at the end of the day for what you accomplished will ever be popular again.
I’m not suggesting bringing back the sweat shops of the early 20th century when some of our machines were made.
There is a real difference between my 1960’s Delta band saw and the harbor freight copy.
When you look at the castings on my 1970’s Made in England lathe and the B&S surface grinder then compare the fit and finish on a modern Jet drill press or Grizzly Jointer. There is a significant difference.
Do they all do a good job? In my experience, yes.

So what’s my point? The world has changed and the old ways aren’t coming back. Maybe that’s a good thing? I’m not so sure.

Are you saying the Grizzly import castings are better? I would think the Delta, though showing the signs of it's working life, might still have more quality shine through than might be seen in a Harbor Freight copy.

I don't think either of us are saying we want a return to all the "old ways". We have smart stuff now that can enhance the capabilities of even an old design machine. I say that with an exception. Getting to feel pride in what one does, and having a work ethic that includes a morality apparently absent in 21st century management, is as good for now as it was USA was exporting it's best!

 

[jwmay]

So you could say "buyers specify junk" and be more accurate.

Just wanted to double down on my appreciation for this statement. You're much more eloquent than me. But I think I share that sentiment. Nearly every time I read or watch people complaining about the thing they just bought, I can't help but wonder what they were hoping for at bottom dollar price. Even my wife will find some furniture she wants, and is constantly disappointed when I tell her it's garbage. I'm astounded at the blatantly cheap wood, ugly weak fasteners, complete absence of attractive and durable joinery, and overall light duty nature of all of it! But there's a factory somewhere churning this garbage out, and it's selling like hotcakes. New machine tools are dramatically better than this pervasive bargain home decor crap people are buying. But I don't blame the person selling it. I blame the people buying it.

 

[Janderso]

This may be why Elon Musk has sought to buy back shares in Tesla, and outright took all of Twitter out of the hands of the gamblers.

Are you saying the Grizzly import castings are better? I would think the Delta, though showing the signs of it's working life, might still have more quality shine through than might be seen in a Harbor Freight copy.

I don't think either of us are saying we want a return to all the "old ways". We have smart stuff now that can enhance the capabilities of even an old design machine. I say that with an exception. Getting to feel pride in what one does, and having a work ethic that includes a morality apparently absent in 21st century management, is as good for now as it was USA was exporting it's best!

I didn’t make myself clear. The British and American castings/machines produced pre 1980’s are superb. In my opinion.
Does my son use and enjoy his HF bandsaw? Yes he does.
I must admit though, the Mehanite milling machine I have is dam good. It’s a Sharp, made in the 80’s in Taiwan.

 

[Janderso]

There seems to be this idea that buying a USA made machine sold 75 years ago, somehow helps industry in the USA today, it really doesn't.

I commented on this on the other made in China thread, but you can buy a Chinese 14x40 from Grizzly or PM for $7000-8000, or a Taiwanese 14x40 for around $11,000. Very few USA made manual lathes anymore, I found one a Standard Modern which sells for $25,000. Looking at a 1958 South Bend catalog, their 14.5x36 lathe sold for $2134 in 1958, adjusted for inflation that would be about $21,000.

For a business that might make sense to spend 2-3x as much, but how many hobby guys or part time shops have that kind of budget?

I very much doubt many hobbyists were buying the larger South Bend lathes "back in the day", most were probably buying the smaller 6-10" light duty lathes if they had the budget for new, or if they needed a larger lathe they shopped around for some 50-60 year old retired flat belt machine from the turn of the century.

Atlas / Craftsman lathes get a lot grief for their inexpensive construction, but in 1960 Sears sold the Atlas made 6" lathe for $175 ($1700 today), or the Atlas made 12x24" lathe for $348 ($3380) with change gears or $435 ($4200) with QCGB, the 12x36 version cost $389 ($3800) or $475 ($4600) with a QCGB. The cabinet with underdrive was an additional $125 ($1200).

The cheapest South Bend 9C was a 9x17" that cost $290 ($2880) in 1958, the long bed 9x34" cost $372 ($3700), the 9A with QCGB and power cross feed that everybody wants today cost $466-548 ($4640-5450). Yes the 9A bench lathe cost as much as the full boat 12x36" Craftsman.

People wonder why there are so many "crummy" Craftsman change gear lathes around, its because that is what most guys with a lathe in the garage could afford.


Buying good enough is not a new concept, it was around long before manufacturing was shipped overseas. Back then people had Craftsman, today we have China.

I think you nailed it Aaron.

 

[Janderso]

Agree. I‘ve been on the phone for 40 minutes now, trying to buy one of their film and foil dispensers. Someone forgot the first rule in marketing: make it easy to buy.

True, the human element in marketing is not what it use to be.

 

[Eyerelief]

Some very good points made here. I have first hand experience working with Pac Rim manufacturers from '93 to present. In the past 30 years I have seen how the manufacturers I deal with have become in their words "more Westernized". These factories are located in Taiwan, Malaysia, China, Vietnam. On that note, I believe that India will be another industrial powerhouse in the very near future. Both China and India possess the necessary resource, people.

Back in the '90's, it was not uncommon to see the most caustic of chemicals poured into storm drains and rivers, and working conditions that most Americans wouldn't set foot in. Not so much today. Although not as regimented as the US, many manufacturing locations are vastly improved. Its not hard to find facilities over there with well documented processes, (ISO), and they adhere well to those processes (doesn't make them necessarily better, but it does make them consistent). If I specify cut corners to save cost, I receive lower priced product with corners cut to save cost. All of these modernization's along with taking better care of the workers, has driven cost up. Having said that, I believe that India and China will always be amongst the lowest cost to manufacture, and in most industries, unfortunately, cost drives decision making.

Even though I have enjoyed seeing the vast improvements in these foreign countries over the years, of my half dozen indicators I own, my favorite is a Starrett. My favorite 5C collet indexer is a Hardinge. Vise, Kurt. Favorite fly fishing reel, Ross. Truck, GMC. I could keep going. They are proven good.

While I certainly don't have the resources to by American all the time, US made offerings are the benchmark that judges when I do buy something "important". I'm finding in some instances that the price differential is shrinking which helps in the decision making.