Tools à la Chinois?

[verbotenwhisky]

Yes to vintage, especially if it be fine precision old iron that gets TLC and can turn out nice stuff. Much of the satisfaction and appeal comes from that. If it can use some restoration and update, then one can view a vintage machine as a project materials kit.

As things are, I sometimes treat my (Chinese origin) stuff as a base materials kit to be modified into something nicer. I think most folk getting an affordable goodie that was last given a wipe in China will find cause to do some "modifications".

Absolutely! The labor cost isn't the only reason they can build it and ship it and still be cheap. I really like my mill and lathe but I am doing a lot of work on them before getting on with the real projects.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

When making a decision as to whether to buy used USA made or imported machines. I considered the possibility of buying a used machine that had unknown defects where my time would be consumed with trying to make things right vs. buying a new import machine with documented shortcomings which could be corrected.

With the exception of an Atlas Craftsman 6x18 lathe that I bought in 1970, all my machines have been new Asian machines. I have done some modifications on all of them but have had no serious concerns with any of them. In an old used machine, replacement of defective parts can be a major issue, With new machines, parts are usually available. When you buy a used machine, it is usually "as is" and any hidden problems become your responsibility. With a new machine from a reputable dealer, you have your warranty and customer service to make thing right.

Absolutely, I did the same thing, PM has been great so far with the bit of support I needed. I just got my first lathe, I have owned 3 previous mills and the last one I rebuilt, it broke me of that egg sucking, the new mill I have now is a PM mill (Chinese) I am doing a few things to it like moving the DRO toward the front of the mill so it can be reached without leaning over the bed, mostly preference stuff.

 

[projectnut]

The nice thing about older heavy iron made for commercial use in the USA is that it was designed to be refurbished many times before eventually heading to the scrap yard. As such the build quality is far superior to the hobby grade machines made in offshore. I doubt that many of the offshore brands are built to the standards needed to be rebuilt even once let alone withstand commercial or industrial use for generations.

I have at least a dozen machines in the shop that spent 40+ years in the commercial world and are still capable of producing quality parts today. I would be interested to know if anyone here has any offshore machinery that has gone through the same scenario and survived to spend another 20+ years of making quality parts in a hobby scenario.

 

[pontiac428]

The nice thing about older heavy iron made for commercial use in the USA is that it was designed to be refurbished many times before eventually heading to the scrap yard. As such the build quality is far superior to the hobby grade machines made in offshore. I doubt that many of the offshore brands are built to the standards needed to be rebuilt even once let alone withstand commercial or industrial use for generations.

I have at least a dozen machines in the shop that spent 40+ years in the commercial world and are still capable of producing quality parts today. I would be interested to know if anyone here has any offshore machinery that has gone through the same scenario and survived to spend another 20+ years of making quality parts in a hobby scenario.

By offshore, you mean import or more specifically the Asian Pacific? My mill and lathe are heavy kit and were capital industrial equipment in their previous lives. My mill is from Spain and my Lathe is from Brazil, and I'd describe them the same way you described yours as far as being durable goods that will still be running well after we're both gone. Not the same category as those from China, you know, made in the foundries with the kids who pour steel into sand moulds while smoking cigarettes. That stuff isn't rebuildable because it wasn't made right to begin with.

 

[projectnut]

By offshore, you mean import or more specifically the Asian Pacific? My mill and lathe are heavy kit and were capital industrial equipment in their previous lives. My mill is from Spain and my Lathe is from Brazil, and I'd describe them the same way you described yours as far as being durable goods that will still be running well after we're both gone. Not the same category as those from China, you know, made in the foundries with the kids who pour steel into sand moulds while smoking cigarettes. That stuff isn't rebuildable because it wasn't made right to begin with.

Yes, I was specifically referring to machines made in the Asian pacific. While I have only used a few machines made in European and eastern European nations they all seemed to be well built and could easily withstand the rigors of industrial applications for many years.

 

[mmcmdl]

What's this " industry " we speak of ? 2 more companies shutting the doors in the area and we still can't hire anyone qualified to do our work . If it keeps up , our lone plant will be gone also . Used to be 4 plants , we are down to one . Becton Dickinson is shutting down one of their plants nearby , just heard this yesterday .

Either way , I enjoy the old iron .

 

[Ropetangler]

There seems to be a fair bit of prejudice on show here. I don't deny that there are many machines of Chinese origin that are not in the top quality range, but then the purchase price is not that high either. Most new machines that weigh a ton and a half, will be pretty reasonable no matter what their country of origin, but when looking at small bench top machines of low cost, you are going to find all the corners that have been cut. I beg to differ that these inexpensive machines could not be fettled to make them much more acceptable. While they may not have been properly assembled in the first place to be as good as they could be, if a new owner was to scrape them in just as someone would have to do with a well worn machine in order to rebuild it, then the Chinese machine could be greatly improved. The one area which might limit them would be the likely relative lack of heft, - lightweight castings and a lack of cast iron might require them to be used for light duty, just as a South Bend would have been limited when compared to a Monarch 10EE, even if they both shared similar swing and distance between centres.
As has been mentioned already the Myford machines while well put together, are basically a 1940 design, while an Asian import at anywhere near the price of the Myford will have a Camlock spindle nose, a quick change tool post and a DRO to boot, all features which Myford should have incorporated, and had they done so, would probably have still been in business.

 

[projectnut]

The "prejudice" you speak of is from the experience and the disappointment with the quality of the Asian machines we've purchased then had to repair/modify just to get them to work properly. I can't count the number of posts about all the "mods" that have been needed to get acceptable cuts from HF bandsaws. They currently run about $375.00. For $500.00 I was able to purchase a well-cared for somewhat larger Startrite saw.

The saw I purchased was bult in the 1980's and spent 20 years working in an industrial setting before I purchased it. It will easily cut to within +/- .003" even at its advanced age. I've been using it on a daily basis for another 20+ years and the only thing it's needed so far is a few blades and a $3.00 gear box seal.

I keep hearing about the possible pitfalls of buying used iron, and in the next sentence read about all the work that had to be made to get a new out of the box Asian machine to work properly. Over the years I've looked at hundreds of used machines and taken home a couple dozen. I assess each and every one of them as to what I feel they will need to run properly. In every case the time spent on the assessment end has been paid back many times over. By the time I purchase a machine I'm relatively sure what the final cost will be to have it up and running in the shop. Again, in every case the final cost of the machines I've purchased has been a fraction of what it would have cost to buy a comparable size new Asian counterpart, and I'm quite sure every one of the ones I've purchased will last longer.

I must admit one of my latest purchases may have been built in Tiawan. The Baileigh cold saw I purchased last year was supposedly made in the USA in 2011. While it may have been assembled here many of the parts appear to be of Taiwanese origin. In any case I purchased it at what I would consider scrap prices with a guarantee from the dealer that if I couldn't get it up and running, he would refund my money. In the end all turned out well. It needed a good cleaning and about $150.00 worth of new parts. I now have another working machine for less than $500.00. Like most machines it isn't all that's necessary to put it to work. On this machine blades seem to be a major expense. I was able to find a few new ones at $50.00 a copy, but that was pure dumb a** luck. They normally run between $150.00 and $300.00 per copy. With a total investment of less than $750.00 it should be good to go for several years to come.

 

[graham-xrf]

The nice thing about older heavy iron made for commercial use in the USA is that it was designed to be refurbished many times before eventually heading to the scrap yard. As such the build quality is far superior to the hobby grade machines made in offshore. I doubt that many of the offshore brands are built to the standards needed to be rebuilt even once let alone withstand commercial or industrial use for generations.

I have at least a dozen machines in the shop that spent 40+ years in the commercial world and are still capable of producing quality parts today. I would be interested to know if anyone here has any offshore machinery that has gone through the same scenario and survived to spend another 20+ years of making quality parts in a hobby scenario.

Indeed! I have noticed that my South Bend(s), even though produced for wartime need, cut down to have "no frills", were still made to the highest standards where it counted. The expectation was they would be worked to death and be thrown away, or maybe just go down with the ship, or get scrapped after the war. Sure, it would be nice if they had hardened ways and bronze bearings, but all I can see is that when put together, and running with a tad less than 0.001" oil film, the run-out is less than 0.0002".

For my purposes, and my level of skill, this is entirely more than I need. No matter that it is no longer museum-piece "original. It now has a QCTP upgrade, and various of my "modifications, and also will have a add-on DRO. The machine is more than 70 years old. Like a well maintained 1940's truck, by now, it owes the environment pretty much zero!

 

[graham-xrf]

Absolutely, I did the same thing, PM has been great so far with the bit of support I needed. I just got my first lathe, I have owned 3 previous mills and the last one I rebuilt, it broke me of that egg sucking, the new mill I have now is a PM mill (Chinese) I am doing a few things to it like moving the DRO toward the front of the mill so it can be reached without leaning over the bed, mostly preference stuff.

I think PM, if it be Precision Matthews, is based in Taiwan. I suppose it is possible they might source some castings from China, but I doubt it. There are all sorts of reasons a Taiwan company would not want to be depending on anything Chinese.

That said, it is still an Asian import. The quality norm is reputed to be better than the usual Chinese import, as is the support via the dealer(s) in USA.