Kinda going off Chinese import stuff..

[matthewsx]

I think when the real historians in the world finally get the non-politicalized story of globalisation straightened out, it will tell the story of how nearly a billion people in two developing countries came out of subsistence farming and urban poverty and became part of the working middle class and will describe all of the problems and wonders that come along with that transformation.

China went from stealing, copying, and arguably still struggling to make a quality product to eventually having their own global powerhouse industries. This is still playing out and it is fraught with compromises, unfulfilled standards, broken promises, etc., i.e. China and India's industries are still getting sorted out and I think time will tell if they can meet global needs and standards.

And the history books will tell a story about how many companies in the original industrialist countries played games with quality to stay alive. Cutting corners, figuring out ways to cheat on costs, exploiting others to make marginal gains while losing focus on their craft. What we are witnessing is miraculous and ugly at the same time.

On the other hand, it is hard to grasp how many great manufacturers are out there. They are just so many trying to make good products, its just that many of them aren't making smaller machining equipment. I'm optimistic we will get it sorted out someday.

Thank you.

We will all do well to remember that we are one planet and we’re all doing the best we can with what we have.

Businesses exist to make money for their investors, good ones will succeed and marginal ones will be replaced.

Fortunately as a hobby I can choose what to work with by whatever criteria I want.

John

 

[vtcnc]

I still feel it a disappointment that the same trousers, but different pockets, is producing much of the planet's Teslas in Shanghai, while providing the next space launch vehicles in USA.

Disappointing, yes. Surprising given all of the incentives and disincentives we can easily point to? No.

Working for caterpillar and seeing/experiencing Chinese issues, very much the same, I found that you couldn't trust them to do the right thing unless you supervised them constantly. Its as if they lacked the personal morals to "do the right thing". They would constantly attempt (individually and as a team) to pass and send crap. I have to imagine it was the complete destruction of the old time values in the 50's-60's that lead to this moral decline as a whole. The Taiwanese are ethnic Chinese and don't share this issue.

Now I am not saying there are not hucksters/liars/ and hacks in America, there is, I have witnessed it. But I have never witnessed it happen as a team or wide spread. The wheat is separated from the chaff pretty quickly here in my experience

I worked for a global battery manufacturer for several years and spent time in plants in China, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore and Indonesia. Honestly, I didn't see much of an appreciable difference - meaning in the context of people of eastern descent and western descent.

 

[vtcnc]

You have to be so careful these days. There is so much junk floating around that you cannot take anything for granted. I am helping to tool up a new manufacturing facility, and we have decided to buy old used tools wherever we can, since we have had too many disappointments. I mentioned an imported plasma cutter that died after just one job. The facility manager told me to simmer down, since it paid for itself many times over with that job. There is no way that the importer will take that machine back on warranty or fix it. He just took it home and is still trying to fix it. Another problem with buying new tools off Craigslist these days is that the places you get them look so seedy with all the piles of new tools in cartons. Looks too much like a theft ring. Only old used tools unless it is an emergency.

These are indeed strange times. Soon, all the old tools will be gone, and we'll be dependent on Amazon and Reddit reviews.

I'm confused. A "new manufacturing facility" and the decision was to buy old used tools? Because of too many disappointments? You are referring to being disappointed by imported machine tools, correct? Can you give an example besides the plasma cutter?

Buying new tools off Craigslist? Is this done today? What kind of machine tools are purchased off Craigslist today?

 

[ericc]

I buy machine tools off Craigslist! I tried to sell my junk lathe that I bought from Craigslist to the fellow who was building the automatic door latches for the company. He said, I only need to do 30 doors, so why don't I just borrow it. He did a fantastic job, no glitches, and returned the lathe spotless. So, a Craigslist lathe actually made some real parts.

As for disappointments, I fell for that 6" chuck scam on Ebay. I thought the chucks were from the US, since they were shipped from Chino, CA. One of the tool guys said, "you idiot, don't you know Chino is China in Spanish." I know where Chino is. It's in Southern California. Apparently, this chuck was actually being shipped from Malaysia. At least that's what the tracking said. It never ended up arriving, but at least Ebay gave me my money back. I also bought one of those Ebay dead centers. It had a carbide point and was advertised as RC68. The one I got was soft when touched with a file. It was made of mild steel. I complained, and the seller told me to send a photo. I did, and he said that they sent the wrong one. They refunded me $1.

Somebody criticized me for pulling two fails in a row. He said I must be pretty stupid, since all his friends make excellent purchases from Chinese sources like Aliexpress and Banggood. It was sort of an acquired knack, and apparently impossible to teach to dinosaurs. He said that it was a sign of class division. The successful ones will rise into the future by embracing the new way, while the failures will stick to their old ways, wondering why nothing goes right for them.

By the way, I ended up getting a 6" chuck off Craigslist. It turned out not to be Chinese made, but it was a high quality Taiwanese one and it was new! Admittedly, it cost a little more, actually a lot more, than that fake Ebay chuck, but it was tight and nice. The guy selling it was a retiring machinist and he was glad that it went to someone who would use it rather than flipping it. Unfortunately, I never used it. I made and threaded a back plate for it, but before I could use it, I responded to an ad in Craigslist for South Bend lathe gears. They were $150. Not bad, but the cardboard box appeared to also contain at least two chucks. When I arrived to pick up the purchase, I discovered that the box also contained a South Bend steady rest, and a couple of knurling tools. The steady rest was no use to me, since I made one, but if I had it earlier, it would have saved me a lot of work. The knurling tools were great, and worked first time. Both of the chucks were good ol' US brands (Skinner) and they were rusty but in good shape after a soaking in oil and cleaning. I was afraid something was bad, but the chuck worked just fine. Made a bunch of parts with it.

Sorry for all the stories. But you asked.

 

[Cadillac]

I see a lot of machine tool businesses reselling old iron on CL. Buy at auction prices sell at hefty resale price. Good business in my book.

 

[Aaron_W]

Cheap tools are probably better today than they ever have been. Everybody loves vintage tools, but we are self selecting, we love the quality vintage tools, and tend to overlook the cheap vintage stuff which is out there although not in large number because it wasn't good.

I'm going to throw the AA made Craftsman 6" mini-lathe (this is not the Atlas made 6" lathe) under the bus here as an example. In 1949 these sold for $43 without a motor. The recommended 1/4hp motor added $53.50 (yes the motor cost more than the lathe). In 2022 that would be $512 for the lathe + $638 for the motor = $1150. Personally I think these are cool little lathes within their limits, but honestly a $700 7x12 Chinese mini-lathe is better in every regard except looks (those AA lathes are quite attractive and look much better than they work).

The US Auto industry turned off a generation of potential customers with the turds they were cranking out in the 1970s and early 80s. Trucks excepted, 1/2 ton and larger is something they managed not to screw up. The small trucks were (and mostly still are) all rebadged imports, Mazda (Ford), Isuzu (Chevy) or Mitsubishi (Dodge).


You really can't blame China, you have to blame the people contracting the work. Contractors worldwide will only do what is in the contract, and nothing more than that. Writing a good contract and doing compliance checks for overseas manufacturing is an acquired skill, those with experience tend to do fairly well, those lacking experience or just trying to cut costs to the minimum, not so much. Seperate from the manufacture, many sellers of cheap import tools are sketchy at best, so buying from a reputable seller helps a lot, but adds to the price.

Cheap tools from any source requires some work from the buyer, there are right and wrong places to save money. Vintage tools also require some work from the buyer. Just assuming a tool is good because it is old and made in the USA, Europe or Japan is a good way to buy a used up piece of junk.

I don't like supporting the current Chinese government so given the option I prefer to shop elsewhere. Sometimes there is an option, sometimes not so much. Just dismissing Chinese made products as junk is extremally simplistic. The buyer should be evaluating the quality of every purchase regardless of the source.

 

[addertooth]

When I buy Chinese-made shop equipment, I like to go through a reputable American intermediary.
This way, I have a local contact to get problems resolved, and a lower shipping cost for returns.
They act much like a condom, to isolate the badness, when you are dating a sketchy girl.

I have been pretty pleased with the Chinese lathe from Little Machine Shop, and although my mill was from Taiwan,
it was comforting to get it through Precision Matthews. Another layer of protection can be well worth paying for.

 

[graham-xrf]

The US Auto industry turned off a generation of potential customers with the turds they were cranking out in the 1970s and early 80s. Trucks excepted, 1/2 ton and larger is something they managed not to screw up. The small trucks were (and mostly still are) all re-badged imports, Mazda (Ford), Isuzu (Chevy) or Mitsubishi (Dodge).

There is a fondness for the pre-millennium 4x4 flatbeds, which receive significant restoration attention. The extent to which they have rotted out, and what one discovers in the saga to fix them up, does reveal the places where the build was skimped on. The more considered repairs, meaning removing sloppy patch-ups and doing it right, yield a vehicle that exceeds it's USA factory specification, even if it still shows the wounds of it's previous life. Ford, Chevrolet, Jeep Cherokee, and others are the favourites. Japanese flatbeds seem to be less iconic, except perhaps Toyota Hilux, and that from a fame gained as vehicle useful for being fitted up with weaponry.

For insight into the real manufacturing shortcomings, there is the restoration by --> Steve Summers on his 1985 Chevy K10
There are even songs from South Africa, with a ton of humour about choosing a Ford over a Hilux. From my relatives in Australia, the same stuff is going on. Yes, there is American, and Japanese, and Korean. Not so much Chinese! Maybe I am not up to date on this, but it may be there are more Chinese parts in American brands than driving around under their own banner. Foton? Sinotruck? Shacman? Dongfeng?

I don't like supporting the current Chinese government so given the option I prefer to shop elsewhere. Sometimes there is an option, sometimes not so much. Just dismissing Chinese made products as junk is extremally simplistic. The buyer should be evaluating the quality of every purchase regardless of the source.

Yes - there is that! I avoided it in the first posting. The "quality" of a purchase is the quality of the product divided by the price. If there is not much difference, the buyer may be driven by other sentiments. I wonder if the graph of Chinese exports is starting to shift a little.

 

[Firebrick43]

Disappointing, yes. Surprising given all of the incentives and disincentives we can easily point to? No.

I worked for a global battery manufacturer for several years and spent time in plants in China, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore and Indonesia. Honestly, I didn't see much of an appreciable difference - meaning in the context of people of eastern descent and western descent.

I was very specific, I never said of eastern decent, or even ethnic Chinese as I very clearly said I didn't see it out of the Taiwanese. Nor did I out of the Okinawans, Philippines, Koreans, or Thai cultures that I witnessed when I was in the USMC.

 

[vtcnc]

I was very specific, I never said of eastern decent, or even ethnic Chinese as I very clearly said I didn't see it out of the Taiwanese. Nor did I out of the Okinawans, Philippines, Koreans, or Thai cultures that I witnessed when I was in the USMC.

Sorry if I came across as putting words in your mouth. That wasn't my intention. I was only trying to say that my experience in that region where China dominates, I don't necessarily see a difference between workers.