Buying my first new lathe. Chinese or Chinese?

Quality is important, but it is only one of the important things when I spoke earlier about what makes a good lathe. Design features such as favorable bed-to-swing ratios above 65% are good - above 75% to 80% are even better. Wide saddle widths and just sheer weight are also part of this equation. Anyone who has watched or knows a little bit about football knows what is meant by “low man wins”. Low, wide and heavy makes for more stability.

Features like headstocks scraped to the v-ways not only provide a more permanent alignment but also transfers vibration and torque better. A person shopping for a lathe should probably also know the value or difference between headstocks with angular contact bearings and tapered roller bearings. Angular contact bearings can sustain high speeds for longer periods with less heat build up and thermal expansion. Tapered roller bearings can sustain greater load and greater shock and all things being equal will last a little longer. However, they do this with some loss of the former.

I know a lot of people will say that many of these things aren’t needed for the hobbyist, and that is a valid point of view. However, knowing where the high mark is, what it feels like and what it is capable of can make for a more informed buyer. In other words, putting your hands on a few different machines and talking to people with different experiences is important with new or used machines. It makes for good research.

Someone said earlier in this thread, I think it was Pontiac428, that lathes have a look and feel. I believe this to be very true. I remember years ago hearing machinists say, “It looks right. It feels right.” It took years and more than a couple of lathes for me to figure out what they were talking about. And I’m still learning.
 
As to the question of Chinese quality. I purchased a 12" Enco lathe that was made in China. That was 25 years ago. I used it for hobby, making parts for old cars, building lawn mowers, you name it. I'm sure a lot of people would question its accuracy. Let them, I don't care, it is good enough. The lathe still works fine. Some of it has bit the dust (8" 4 jaw chuck) or a 6" chuck that is used for chores that do not require concentric holding. Installed a three phase motor and VFD (every lathe needs one), the original motor was still fine after 20 years. The lathe is still trudging along, doing everything I ask of it and I'd hate to be without it. All in all, it was a very good buy.

Industrial machines. My machine shop machines was populated with cast offs from local industry. Some of it was stupendous (16" Monarch), some of it was pure junk. All but about a half dozen of them had serious problems. Interestingly, some of the best machines were the oldest. Not because they were better, they had not been used up.

Bill
 
Tailstock is right for sure about the “feel”. Don’t overlook this.

Some of it is the tactile sensory feedback you get from the machine, some of it is the feel of the touch points, controls, handwheels, etc.. the experience and sheer pleasure of using the machine is an important part of the hobby for me. Readability of dials and scales are also important especially as I’ve gotten older. Hardinge wins hands down with the white dials and black numbers. I far prefer the feel of my Bridgeport over the TRAK mill for manual machining even though I use the TRAK for 90% of the work as I’m running CNC. Just think of these points as you pick machines.

I also do not subscribe to “good enough for hobby” use. It has to be good enough to do the job you need. Simple low precision parts may be just fine on about any machine, but start trying to hold tighter tolerances over longer distances with more features and the weakness of low cost machines starts to show and frustration will Mount. Hopefully it won’t discourage beginners.

Tolerances that challenge my skills to the max on my South Bend 14 are a no-brainer on the 10EE especially in tougher materials like 4140 HT at RC 25. Same thing turning big chunks of A36 on the 10,000 lb series 60 Monarch. 300 thou depth of cut and holding a couple thou, or 25 thou cut and hold 0.001. The size and mass of this machine with the stiffness of large shank tools is astounding and a pleasure to use. A well cared for Hardinge HLV-H is an absolute joy to operate making small parts. While not as rigid as a EE, it is so smooth and provides such good feedback when making high precision small parts. Big, wide, heavy, and stiff are crucial aspects of capable machines and certainly improve both the feel and experience of using them and the ease to make precision parts.

not every shop can have or needs top end monster machines, but looking back over my hobby path, I would say spend wisely and purchase the heaviest lathe that you can manage at the size you want. You can make little parts on a big lathe, but not big parts on a small lathe. Buy big enough. Better yet a big one and a small one. Is metric threading really necessary? If so that leaves a lot of old iron out of the running and what was made E/M is newer and quite expensive still. Mills are a lot tougher as there were few small truly industrial milling machines smaller than a Bridgeport. Even there I have a 30” table series 1 BP that I love for small parts, but quickly outgrew the short x travel. again really think about what your jobs look like. The move from R8 to a cat 40 spindle is also a huge step up in rigidity.

most of us end up on a path of up grading as our skills grow. Try and think ahead and really try to avoid changing tooling series. Tooling will be a high percentage of your hobby cost for sure maybe even more than the machines themselves. There’s no universally correct answer, but lean towards more industrial and heavier.
 
I agree with most of mksj’s statements. I am a PM1340GT owner and am pleased with the lathe, price and especially the support. I too believe a Taiwanese machine will provide significant superiority in form, fit and function to integral parts of a machine, though I prefer to give everything a good check before using. In a previous life, I was in China as a Quality Rep for a company and toured several manufacturing plants. While I agree the Chinese machines are rougher in so many ways, my experience showed me that China can produce some very capable and precision machinery, the USA chooses to buy and import items of a lesser quality.
 
Some very good points. We have to identify our needs. Bigger or better is not always the best. For my use, there is no need for sub thou accuracy. Plus or minus one thou is good enough. The 16 inch Monarch of High School, while magnificent, was a beast to use. Very heavy and exhausting. In addition, at 5' 6", I was too short to properly operate it. In order to see the actual work area, I would have needed an operator platform. The problem was not only the height of the machine, but also its width. I could not "lean over" the machine to see. So I would happily choose the 16" South Bend. It was, in its own right, a beauty to use. Big enough, accurate enough, and a joy to use. Which, by the way, pretty much describes my 12" Enco.
Bill
 
OrangeAlpine said:
Some very good points. We have to identify our needs. Bigger or better is not always the best. For my use, there is no need for sub thou accuracy. Plus or minus one thou is good enough. The 16 inch Monarch of High School, while magnificent, was a beast to use. Very heavy and exhausting. In addition, at 5' 6", I was too short to properly operate it. In order to see the actual work area, I would have needed an operator platform. The problem was not only the height of the machine, but also its width. I could not "lean over" the machine to see. So I would happily choose the 16" South Bend. It was, in its own right, a beauty to use. Big enough, accurate enough, and a joy to use. Which, by the way, pretty much describes my 12" Enco.
Bill
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That is a very good point, I am also 5'-6" and smaller machines make it easier to use. I made my own stand for my PM1236T lathe based on the height recommendations I found on the internet, I quickly realized I had to take a couple inches off of the height to make it usable. I didn't want a platform since that would be a fall hazard.
 
Ischgl99 said:
I am also 5'-6" and smaller machines make it easier to use. I made my own stand for my PM1236T lathe based on the height
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Good points! Proper sizing does matter for each of us. While I use to be 6' , I am now growing downward. (I am long from the waist up and the only advantage I can see for this is that it makes leg lifts easier to do, but is a disadvantage for doing setups!)

Anyway, I believe that total height is the issue for seeing, but not necessarily for working long periods. After designing several work areas/labs I came to the conclusion that the height of my work benches and machines should be located at the bottom of my elbows when I stand relaxed, with my arms bent at the elbow, in front of the surface. That way my elbows just slide onto/above the surface without my having to bend over or stand on my tip toes. This is much higher than most counters/cabinets/machines that one can buy. Traditional cabinets and counters are too low for me resulting in back fatigue and aches after being at them for a while. ADA requirements for public locations just do not work for me and all to many of these work areas require that one sit down to reach the counter top.

Most folks who spend hours at a computer/desk also have these improperly sized. This can result in all sorts of maladies!
 
In the grand scheme of things, waiting until the end of the year to get a quality PM machine, is but a blip in the path to lathe machine happiness!

One thing that some of the more experienced brethren here forget, is that not all of us are knowledgeable enough to properly evaluate a used industrial machine. I've seen numerous machine rehab threads here, where significant obstacles have presented themselves, and some of us don't have the knowledge, or equipment, to easily overcome them. That's where a new machine shortcuts the process from purchase to cutting metal.

I count myself as lucky to have found a decently low mileage Taiwan made 12x36, but now I've spent several months building a new stand, installing a DRO, and sorting out chuck problems. Come mill purchase time, I'm very heavily leaning towards purchasing a PM. More money, yes, but I'll be able to focus on improving my machining skills, instead of my machine rehab skills.
 
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B2 said:
Good points! Proper sizing does matter for each of us. While I use to be 6' , I am now growing downward. (I am long from the waist up and the only advantage I can see for this is that it makes leg lifts easier to do, but is a disadvantage for doing setups!)

Anyway, I believe that total height is the issue for seeing, but not necessarily for working long periods. After designing several work areas/labs I came to the conclusion that the height of my work benches and machines should be located at the bottom of my elbows when I stand relaxed, with my arms bent at the elbow, in front of the surface. That way my elbows just slide onto/above the surface without my having to bend over or stand on my tip toes. This is much higher than most counters/cabinets/machines that one can buy. Traditional cabinets and counters are too low for me resulting in back fatigue and aches after being at them for a while. ADA requirements for public locations just do not work for me and all to many of these work areas require that one sit down to reach the counter top.

Most folks who spend hours at a computer/desk also have these improperly sized. This can result in all sorts of maladies!
Click to expand...
I sized my stand for elbow height for the hand wheels, but didn't like it at all since it made it difficult to see what I was working on. 2 inches lower than that seems to be about right for my height. I probably shrunk too, I'm using my height from 20 years ago, my daughter is 5'-4" and just a bit shorter than me, but I refuse to measure myself, 5'-6" is short enough!
 
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