Buying my first new lathe. Chinese or Chinese?

[woodchucker]

Very true but most are worn and need some work or rebuild to be used for accurate work.

yes, but as a relative newcomer (I know he has experience) you can wear out a new one just as quick as anything with a crash or 2.
Or dropping the machine over like a few have done here.

I think PM is a better buy than Grizz, I think old is a better choice until you get lots of experience, then you won't be asking that question here, you'll know what you want. Buy used, then think about it. Avoid a heavily used production machine... you'll know the difference.. the lesser used will look like it's lesser used. Avoid new paint jobs, they can hide cracks in the castings. If you must have a new, the PM is worth waiting for. Matt is here on the forum, and that's important in my mind. I don't know him, but I read the responses, and I'm happy with his responses.. He doesn't blow you off... I know grizz is good with customer service, but I think PM has a leg up.

 

[pontiac428]

I'd put the effort into used iron. Patience and careful research pay off in real dollars. Not all industrial iron is worn out, and not all of it is old. My mill and lathe started as capital and were made in 1997 and 2002 respectively. That timeframe meant they were off to the side for minimal use, while the CNC machines made the money.

When you buy used, you also get loot. Lathe tooling, chucks, and accessories are frigging expensive to buy new. Same with tooling, first world used kit is more rigid, precise, and functional than the third world approximations of those items. I'd rather fix parts in a used Bison than in a brand new chicom. The experience is night and day.

If you wait and filter out the junk, you will get more for your money and have a better experience at the handwheels with used tools. Touch a China lathe and then go touch a 40 year old Clausing (or even a Takisawa) and let me know what you think the differences are.

 

[Nesse1]

Clausing and Takisawa you say?

There was a Takisawa that I wanted back when I was searching. A real deal made in Japan unit, previously owned by a machinist for his garage use. A real dream find. The seller bought it from the widow of the machinist, and then never moved it. He couldn't figure out how...nor could I, without spending a grand to do so. It's a tank of a lathe.

Forward to NOW, and where I work, the management decided to shrink our floor space footprint to save money. There is a Clausing 1300 and Bridgeport back in the maintenance department that are on the chopping block. They are covered in surface rust and look BAD...which may just be a good thing for someone that doesn't mind a project. The facility manager was shaking his head over the prospect of selling them. If I can get them cheap enough, I'm going to have to grab them, even though I don't have space. I've almost finished the stand for my Tida 12x36, but the Clausing is a superior machine. And who doesn't want a Bridgeport? Oh, this may be but a pipe dream....but what's wrong with dreaming?

 

[jwmay]

Well after reading everyone’s responses, I reckon you’re good and muddled now.
So here’s one more opinion since we all have our own.
What should you do? It’s an honest to goodness crap shoot. Ya pays yer money, and ya take yer chances.
PM is good. Grizzly is good. Plenty of industry is running Jet machinery as well. I kinda thought the 16x60 at work made good parts when it wasn’t busted. I can introduce you to guys that’ll tell you just about any brand is junk. Toolmakers are a darn nit picky bunch.

Oh! Almost forgot. I personally think companies use the word gunsmithing as an excuse to ask an extra grand for the machine.
Your best bet is to buy a brand new one. Hopefully if it’s gonna break, you can break it under warranty. And go buy a completely wasted old one with a half ton of tooling to boot. Just make sure the tooling will fit your brand new one.

 

[Aaron_W]

I suspect most of the folks panning Grizzly have never owned a largish Grizzly machine. Some of it is a knee-jerk reaction to anything imported, and some of it is Grizzly's fault. For starters, whereas PM seems to sell only good quality tools, Grizzly sells the full range from complete junk to good quality. I've been using a Grizzly mill for over 20 years and it's still a good, tight, machine. Much better than the clapped out Bridgeports that I could find when I started looking for a mill. Much better. In my circle of friends there are multiple Grizzly G0750 lathes - I think someone bought one and it impressed others in the club and so on, but I know of at least four happy owners. With Grizzly you need to shop carefully (and preferably visit a showroom, or someone who has the machine you're considering) but some of their stuff is very good. I don't have the experience with PM, but I see a lot of praise and nothing bad about them.

GsT

I think this is pretty much across the board. You can buy a 7" mini-lathe new for as little as $500 if you get one of the no name (Vevor etc) off of ebay, but you can also pay $1500+ going with one of the better vendors like Little Machine Shop. Quality varies with price. As you get larger into the 9 and 10" lathes there is less range in price and quality (basically the ubiquitous 9x20 and a couple different 10x22/30). 12" and larger price seems to vary more by COO China vs Taiwan with the Taiwan machines being significantly more expensive. Support is the second factor in price for these larger lathes as well. Bolton sells some of the same basic machines as Grizzly, but Bolton quality control and customer support is essentially non-existent compared to Grizzly, and there is a price difference reflecting this.

Grizzly runs the full range from a $600 4x6" micro lathe to $100,000+ 42x212" monsters. I'm guessing there is a big difference in the quality of these two lathes. PM offers a much narrower range kind of in Grizzly's middle range.

I don't own a Grizzly machine, but I do have some machines that are similar and use the same parts. I've found Grizzly technical support to be pretty good, and easy to use.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

That’s very good advice, buying used, you really need to be able to properly evaluate condition or you will be very deep in an expensive hole. On the other hand, there lots of great machines out there that are very high quality and very capable. Skip the cheap ones in need of a rebuild unless that’s your bag Or wish to pay a Pro to do it.

Consider the use objectively. I’ve done little aluminum robot parts on the school’s Grizzly when I have to. It works sufficiently well. However I will drive 15 min home to use one of my Monarch or Hardinge lathes if it is anything more. No way would I consider doing big chunks of steel or 4140ht on the Grizzly.

so the important thing is for you to be able to do the job you wish to accomplish at the accuracy and speed you need. If the need is met with an import then great, if not find a trustworthy knowledgeable buddy to evaluate with you or a reputable dealer/rebuilder and plunk down the cash for an industrial machine.

I have never bought a used lathe, but, I have owned 2 Bridgeport and an Italian Bridgeport knock off. The Italian machine was the newest of the 3 and had the least issues, paid around 1500 for it and still poured another 1000 into it, the first Bridgeport was my first machine, hit and miss trial and error but mostly my own issues, it was a good machine, but the second Bridgeport was a basket case, looked good and ran okay at the shop but when I got it home I started finding little hidden BS, the gibs were screwed up and the tables ways had been monkeyed with to make them seem okay when they were not just to name a few of the beginning battles because as we tore it down to take care of those things the hits just kept on coming. My cousin was a machinist and he was even amazed at some of the crap that they had done to the machine.

My point here is if you are planning to buy a second hand machine go in with your eyes wide open and be prepared to spend some money, there are some great buy out there but in my humble opinion the great buys will cost more then the new Chinese machines either because they are in good enough shape to bring more money or because you will have spend that money to make them whole by the time you are comfortable they will do the job you bought them for.

The old adage that you get what you pay for generally applies here, it is much as my grandfather use to tell me about cars, "those who can afford to drive a used car don't".

 

[markba633csi]

Atlas is a good used beginner lathe. There's virtually no part for them you can't get, and even a worn one will do an amazing amount of work.
Find one that's missing a motor or a couple minor parts- save a lot of scheckels and have fun fixing it up
That's my spill...

 

[verbotenwhisky]

I am not completely new to lathes but new enough that I admit I am not smart. I posted a few times in other forums and got some really good input but I am a little confused about a few things.
Is there that big of a difference between the PM and Grizzly?
I really like some of the features on the PM 1440 like 8” chuck and a 3yr warranty but my problem now is PM has zero stock on any lathes and they sent me an email a few minutes ago stating it could be December before they get anything.
I have also been looking at the Grizzly 0824. I am sure they both have their goods and bads but just wondering if there is a huge difference between them and are tool posts and some of the basic attachments interchangeable on lathe's?
Also wondering what makes a lathe a gun smithing lathe?

I have a Grizzly wood lathe and it is a good piece of equipment. I bought a Grizzly Router table and I am please with that.

I bought a PM-940V-PDF and like the machine very much and I also purchased a PM1236 which I am also pleased with.

I have made some small modifications to all of the large equipment, the 2 lathes and the mill, with the exception of the DRO issues I had with my PM1236 which Precision Mathews took care of, the rest were either minor adjustments I would expect after shipping a piece of equipment or personal preference changes such as but not limited to the Mills DRO display location.

The Grizzly machines are metric lead screws machines while the Precision Mathews Machines are built with imperial lead screws, that would be one of the big differences. PM has them built that way which may be why they seem to have some supply chain issues (supply chain issue is speculation on my part). PM also takes time to pull the different types of machines down and write better manuals for them, I am still awaiting the manual on my PM940-PDF....

 

[B2]

Is there anyone here that has added a VFD and 3ph motor to their lathe?

I added VFD to my 3-Phase PM1440GT and posted the very detailed write up:

VFD conversion using solid state electronic components.

It has been a while since I did the conversion and I have had no problems with it. However, while MANY folks have downloaded the Part II write up, that describes the conversion, few have provide feedback or contacted me. It is quite possible that replacing all the original relays/contactors with a hand full of inexpensive transistor may have been more than most folks want to attempt. Also, I added several additional features that some may not need. Anyway, by doing it my way I did not have to have an external cabinet for the controls. The cost is probably less than using Mark's approach, but the main cost is the VFD itself and wire which are common to all conversions. The transistors, resistors, capacitors, etc and circuit board, cost very little. I did not have to buy a different 3 phase motor as mine seems to work fine. This maybe the luck of the draw.

I have not seen anyone say anything bad about the PM machines (Chinese or Taiwanese).

Since I live in Pittsburgh, I bought from PM. I purchased both a mill PM940M-CNC-VS (China) and the lathe PM1440GT (Taiwan). I have not been disappointed with their service or help. WRT to China vs Taiwan, go for the Taiwan. I purchased the mill because it was big, CNC and available. I had very little experience with milling and so did not know any better than to get the China version . Every thing about the Taiwan product is made and finished better. Both machines work, but the lathe has far fewer problems. I have written this before, but I think the biggest issue with the Chinese product is the quality control. Others have purchased the 940M (non-CNC) and have had much better luck. Anyway, slowly, one by one I have been solving the Mill's problems and I was able to make things right out of the box.

While I am very hands on and an engineer I had never done much in the way of machining when I started. Many years ago (1990) I purchased as my first machine a South-bend heavy 10" used and got a bargain. I think my initial layout was about $600 which included getting a single phase motor for it. It came with a bunch of tooling. Because it was well used, but had TLC I was able to use it from the beginning. But it has some issues that only a rebuilt will fix. Nevertheless, it has features and easy of use the I actually prefer it over the 1440GT for simple tasks. I love its very versatile Norton gear box. While it is a smaller lathe it seems heavier to me. So I have kept both. Someday I may rebuild parts of the SB.
Dave L.

 

[Janderso]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but are Chinese the only options? Old equipment is showing up on FB ~Marketplace or Craigs~L monthly, as this type equipment always outlives the owners.

Seems like we have this discussion quite often. There seems to be two camps.
I'm one who would wait and buy a good English (Colchester) or US made lathe. They are out there.
My second choice would be to pay more and buy a lathe from Taiwan. Precision Mathews has Chinese and Taiwan made lathes.