- Joined
- Feb 8, 2014
- Messages
- 11,187
Nothing wrong with the D80. Not sure how the RPM would work, but might be worth the upgrade just to play with it. Might be a learning experience, the problem is trying to find a place to sense the spindle speed.
-
Welcome back Guest! Did you know you can mentor other members here at H-M? If not, please check out our Relaunch of Hobby Machinist Mentoring Program!
Beauty in The Beast: Webb 5BVK Barn Find/Conversion
- Thread starter Charlieman22
- Start date
- Joined
- May 2, 2021
- Messages
- 330
I like the challenge...
They wrote back (late night workers over there!) and asked:
Do I need 1pc of magnetic tape 3M or 3 pieces of magnetic tape 1M each.
Not sure I know...
*Edit - they also asked if I needed the "aluminum base" - I think the answer to that one is no.
There picture below
My assumption was - cleaner install without -but perhaps this provides a little protection to the tape?
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2014
- Messages
- 11,187
There is a bit of a translation issue when buying parts. Fortunately their documentation is well written by a native English speaker, and quite possibly a machinist.
I would buy it in one long piece, then just cut to length as needed. 3M should give you enough to replace all of it down the road in about 5 or 6 years if needed, or have enough for your lathe also, when you get one. (I replaced my X axis tape after 6 years because I spilled some acetone on it and the tape started coming loose)
No aluminum pad needed, just the tape and stainless steel ''cover band''. If needed I can provide some pictures.
This is from their PDF
I would buy it in one long piece, then just cut to length as needed. 3M should give you enough to replace all of it down the road in about 5 or 6 years if needed, or have enough for your lathe also, when you get one. (I replaced my X axis tape after 6 years because I spilled some acetone on it and the tape started coming loose)
No aluminum pad needed, just the tape and stainless steel ''cover band''. If needed I can provide some pictures.
This is from their PDF
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 2, 2021
- Messages
- 330
Ok - lest we not have something on the agenda to figure out - there is one thing that remains unresolved.
Quill movement.
Manual is going to be tough.
At issue - there is really no good place for a manual hand wheel.
Interference issues with the casting and it seems, the only spots would be parallel rather than perpendicular to the floor.
With no controller in place - option for a nice pulse generating wheel seem limited to me.
I want to control direction and speed of decent/ascent.
I won't have any tactile feel - so subtle control seems critical.
Having to turn a nob to make it go, then flip a switch to back it off, then turn the nob, then flip the switch - just to pulse the quill when drilling seems a nightmare.
So I am leaning towards a solution using a foot pedal that has variable speed control built in.
I use this type of pedal when Dremeling and TIG welding - so it's kind of a natural.
If I then used a joy stick with momentary control to direct it up or down - I think I could make it pretty nice.
Of course - as soon as I considered that, I thought, wait: why not put a 3 way selector in, so I can send power to the quill, or the X, or the Y, axis - and then I would have power axis that I could adjust with my foot.
I don't know though.
That would mean a joy stick for X & another for Y.
Maybe.
Top on my list though - is finding a quality DC foot pedal that would provide variable speed.
Welcome any/all suggestions if this is a known quantity to anyone reading.
Shot this picture of the tag on my servos.
Can't make head's or tails of what the max voltage they are safe to be run at.
Can anyone help me decipher?
Quill movement.
Manual is going to be tough.
At issue - there is really no good place for a manual hand wheel.
Interference issues with the casting and it seems, the only spots would be parallel rather than perpendicular to the floor.
With no controller in place - option for a nice pulse generating wheel seem limited to me.
I want to control direction and speed of decent/ascent.
I won't have any tactile feel - so subtle control seems critical.
Having to turn a nob to make it go, then flip a switch to back it off, then turn the nob, then flip the switch - just to pulse the quill when drilling seems a nightmare.
So I am leaning towards a solution using a foot pedal that has variable speed control built in.
I use this type of pedal when Dremeling and TIG welding - so it's kind of a natural.
If I then used a joy stick with momentary control to direct it up or down - I think I could make it pretty nice.
Of course - as soon as I considered that, I thought, wait: why not put a 3 way selector in, so I can send power to the quill, or the X, or the Y, axis - and then I would have power axis that I could adjust with my foot.
I don't know though.
That would mean a joy stick for X & another for Y.
Maybe.
Top on my list though - is finding a quality DC foot pedal that would provide variable speed.
Welcome any/all suggestions if this is a known quantity to anyone reading.
Shot this picture of the tag on my servos.
Can't make head's or tails of what the max voltage they are safe to be run at.
Can anyone help me decipher?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2014
- Messages
- 11,187
The max voltage looks to be 178V. Just to put this in perspective, my motors are rated at 140V, and I run them off of a 75V power supply, and the maximum voltage I have actually seen them run is about 40V at 100 IPM. So running them at much lower than the rated voltage will be fine.
I guess you could use a DC motor controller, but those are rather expensive and really would not work too well for this application. One option that comes to mind is a Brushed DC motor digital driver that takes step & direction signals. https://www.ebay.com/itm/254395441314?hash=item3b3b2660a2:g:5-MAAOSwc8ZdrVYM
You could connect a MPG to this (maybe) and actually control the motor with a hand wheel. I did this trick with a stepper motor once, no controller involved, so there is a chance it will work. There is an encoder on the motor so maybe this could be all lashed up.
I guess you could use a DC motor controller, but those are rather expensive and really would not work too well for this application. One option that comes to mind is a Brushed DC motor digital driver that takes step & direction signals. https://www.ebay.com/itm/254395441314?hash=item3b3b2660a2:g:5-MAAOSwc8ZdrVYM
You could connect a MPG to this (maybe) and actually control the motor with a hand wheel. I did this trick with a stepper motor once, no controller involved, so there is a chance it will work. There is an encoder on the motor so maybe this could be all lashed up.
Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel & Emergency Stop for Siemens #USA# | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel & Emergency Stop for Siemens #USA# at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
- Joined
- May 2, 2021
- Messages
- 330
Hmm - may have over simplified that one in my mind.
Thanks for the research and suggestions.
Universal Pendant seems viable.
Question: Does the dial act as a kind of rheostat - speeding up the motor in either direction depending on clockwise or counter clockwise twist of dial?
That said - I really liked the idea of a foot pedal with variable speed control - for moving the servos.
Don't want to throw in the towel quite yet on that - think it would be super functional.
Foot pedal speed control, with sprung joy stick sending it left/right or up down.
Editors note - I have foot pedals on everything in my house - including the kitchen sink - literally...
Can we beat that one up a bit more - and perhaps you can educate me on why it's bone headed?
My electronics naivety will be on full display...
I see three types of foot pedals.
Some pics and specs below.
1. AC type used with grinders. Juts plug in between tool and 110v wall plug
2. Welding type. Assume AC. Much heavier duty. 7 pin DIN connector. Perhaps that means it has 7 steps?
3. AC/DC conversion type. Plug in to 110AC - output DC volts
I was initially thinking an AC type feeding a converter.
Now I am thinking that perhaps the issue is - a converter wont work if it is fed less than it's 110V.
This DC one appears to be viable - but perhaps its 4amps is too little/ would hurt my motors?
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Vari...ble+speed+foot+pedal+dc&qid=1622817340&sr=8-6
A more out there idea would be to combine my existing gynormo original servo AC/DC converters from my electronics box with one of the heavier duty AC foot pedals from the welding world?
Did the DC voltage put out from these converters get increased and decreased by a controller AFTER it came out of the converters as opposed to the converters RECEIVING variable AC current going in?
I'm wild guessing here - but throwing it out to see what I learn/ checking all the corners of the envelope.
AC to DC converting foot pedal from like above. Specs at very bottom of these pictures cut and pasted from Amazon.
Light weight AC for grinder
Specs of what it powers:
Welding type foot pedal - appears much more heavy duty - suspect much higher average - uses DIN plug
Specs of AC to DC foot Foredom foot pedal (first pic)
(Foot operated speed control comes in a heavy, cast iron metal housing and the extra weight provides added stability and control. It features the same durable, solid state electronics as the C.TXR. The ergonomics allow precise and reliable speed control with your foot. C.SXR-1 has special electronics that converts AC current from an electrical outlet to DC current- the type required by the motor. It also has a special plug that fits the motor's shielded plug. For use with 115 Volt M.TX, M.TXB, M.TXH, M.LX, M.LXB, M.LXH and M.LXBH motors. 7” long, 5” wide, 2-1/2” high, packaged wt-6 lb/2.7 kg, 4 Amps, 60 Hz It is interchangeable with Foredom's C.TXR-1 and C.EMX-1 controls.)
Thanks for the research and suggestions.
Universal Pendant seems viable.
Question: Does the dial act as a kind of rheostat - speeding up the motor in either direction depending on clockwise or counter clockwise twist of dial?
That said - I really liked the idea of a foot pedal with variable speed control - for moving the servos.
Don't want to throw in the towel quite yet on that - think it would be super functional.
Foot pedal speed control, with sprung joy stick sending it left/right or up down.
Editors note - I have foot pedals on everything in my house - including the kitchen sink - literally...
Can we beat that one up a bit more - and perhaps you can educate me on why it's bone headed?
My electronics naivety will be on full display...
I see three types of foot pedals.
Some pics and specs below.
1. AC type used with grinders. Juts plug in between tool and 110v wall plug
2. Welding type. Assume AC. Much heavier duty. 7 pin DIN connector. Perhaps that means it has 7 steps?
3. AC/DC conversion type. Plug in to 110AC - output DC volts
I was initially thinking an AC type feeding a converter.
Now I am thinking that perhaps the issue is - a converter wont work if it is fed less than it's 110V.
This DC one appears to be viable - but perhaps its 4amps is too little/ would hurt my motors?
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Vari...ble+speed+foot+pedal+dc&qid=1622817340&sr=8-6
A more out there idea would be to combine my existing gynormo original servo AC/DC converters from my electronics box with one of the heavier duty AC foot pedals from the welding world?
Did the DC voltage put out from these converters get increased and decreased by a controller AFTER it came out of the converters as opposed to the converters RECEIVING variable AC current going in?
I'm wild guessing here - but throwing it out to see what I learn/ checking all the corners of the envelope.
AC to DC converting foot pedal from like above. Specs at very bottom of these pictures cut and pasted from Amazon.
Light weight AC for grinder
Specs of what it powers:
Welding type foot pedal - appears much more heavy duty - suspect much higher average - uses DIN plug
Specs of AC to DC foot Foredom foot pedal (first pic)
(Foot operated speed control comes in a heavy, cast iron metal housing and the extra weight provides added stability and control. It features the same durable, solid state electronics as the C.TXR. The ergonomics allow precise and reliable speed control with your foot. C.SXR-1 has special electronics that converts AC current from an electrical outlet to DC current- the type required by the motor. It also has a special plug that fits the motor's shielded plug. For use with 115 Volt M.TX, M.TXB, M.TXH, M.LX, M.LXB, M.LXH and M.LXBH motors. 7” long, 5” wide, 2-1/2” high, packaged wt-6 lb/2.7 kg, 4 Amps, 60 Hz It is interchangeable with Foredom's C.TXR-1 and C.EMX-1 controls.)
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2014
- Messages
- 11,187
Foot peddles work great for operations where you need to have your hands free like hand grinding, welding and that kind of thing, not so much where you need consistent speed control. The variable speed foot peddles you show are designed to work with series wound universal motors, not brushed DC or AC motors. Think light dimmer, with a couple more components thrown in. The exception might be the Fordom foot peddle which may have a PWM DC output, but a much more complex circuit hence the higher cost, but is still designed to run a series wound universal motor.
The welder foot peddle most likely has 2 switches and a pot in it hence the 7 pin plug. Pre/post flow and contactor switches, and the pot that controls the welding current through the electronics in the welder box. None of this is high power, all control level signals.
Electric power feeds are very common on manual machines. Normally when machining you would want to set an axis speed and then not vary that speed at all for the duration of the cut, this gives you a consistent surface finish and chip load. This only applies to manual machining, CNC is a little different, but under computer control. You and I can't control a machine like a computer does.
So, the best solution is to have a Forward/Off/Reverse switch, and a speed control pot, tied to a DC motor controller. Now this only applies to the X and Y axes. You could use the existing servo drives as a manual power feed speed control by adding a proper switch and a pot. About $10 in parts and a little wiring. It should be noted that your existing servos are capable of moving things around at speeds far exceeding your ability to control them, thus need to be operated at much reduced performance for human control. Overall a power feed solution is pretty easy for the X and Y axes, we can address this later. The Z axis is where you need to concentrate your efforts for the moment.
The hand wheel on the MPG is a 100 pulse/rev encoder. Connected to proper electronics would give you variable speed along with For/Rev. The faster you turn the handwheel the faster the motor would turn in either direction. You can buy just the handwheel encoder for about $20. You already have one, that probably cost about $300 because it says Fanuc on it.
You have a unique challenge on your Z axis, no mechanical manual capability at all. This is where a joystick might actually make sense, but I am thinking about a more conventional action that is closer to a normal manual operation. A manual mill requires about two rotations of the hand lever for full travel of the quill, much like most drill presses. This action could be duplicated by a lever attached to a rotary encoder that would then send signals to a pulse input motor drive like the one I linked to above. You still would not have any tactile feedback but at least the action would be somewhat conventional and easily controllable.
Bottom line: Foot peddles are not a good fit for this application.
The welder foot peddle most likely has 2 switches and a pot in it hence the 7 pin plug. Pre/post flow and contactor switches, and the pot that controls the welding current through the electronics in the welder box. None of this is high power, all control level signals.
Electric power feeds are very common on manual machines. Normally when machining you would want to set an axis speed and then not vary that speed at all for the duration of the cut, this gives you a consistent surface finish and chip load. This only applies to manual machining, CNC is a little different, but under computer control. You and I can't control a machine like a computer does.
So, the best solution is to have a Forward/Off/Reverse switch, and a speed control pot, tied to a DC motor controller. Now this only applies to the X and Y axes. You could use the existing servo drives as a manual power feed speed control by adding a proper switch and a pot. About $10 in parts and a little wiring. It should be noted that your existing servos are capable of moving things around at speeds far exceeding your ability to control them, thus need to be operated at much reduced performance for human control. Overall a power feed solution is pretty easy for the X and Y axes, we can address this later. The Z axis is where you need to concentrate your efforts for the moment.
The hand wheel on the MPG is a 100 pulse/rev encoder. Connected to proper electronics would give you variable speed along with For/Rev. The faster you turn the handwheel the faster the motor would turn in either direction. You can buy just the handwheel encoder for about $20. You already have one, that probably cost about $300 because it says Fanuc on it.
You have a unique challenge on your Z axis, no mechanical manual capability at all. This is where a joystick might actually make sense, but I am thinking about a more conventional action that is closer to a normal manual operation. A manual mill requires about two rotations of the hand lever for full travel of the quill, much like most drill presses. This action could be duplicated by a lever attached to a rotary encoder that would then send signals to a pulse input motor drive like the one I linked to above. You still would not have any tactile feedback but at least the action would be somewhat conventional and easily controllable.
Bottom line: Foot peddles are not a good fit for this application.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
- Messages
- 3,749
To add another point to Jim's comments on foot pedals, for X and Y axes, it's common to set a speed, direction and GO on a power drive.
At that point, you're free to place your attention or even your body elsewhere. A simple example is to turn back to your bench and another task while the mill is cutting. You can set up a limit switch to stop the traverse or a quick glance checking progress can send your attention back to controling the machine.
A foot pedal would be like a dead man's switch and require you to stay in place 100% of the time. That would be mind numbing. It gives me the willies to consider it.
At that point, you're free to place your attention or even your body elsewhere. A simple example is to turn back to your bench and another task while the mill is cutting. You can set up a limit switch to stop the traverse or a quick glance checking progress can send your attention back to controling the machine.
A foot pedal would be like a dead man's switch and require you to stay in place 100% of the time. That would be mind numbing. It gives me the willies to consider it.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 2, 2021
- Messages
- 330
Ok - bench raced the foot pedal idea.
Foot pedal is out.
Thanks for taking the time to give me the background so I had some depth.
I have also positioned a joy stick.
The joy stick seems somewhat natural - it has a sprung return action, and moves up and down in the direction of the quill motion.
It also requires less fabrication.
Since I don't have a mill yet... less fabrication is desirable.
Now comes the part I am not so clear on.
Is there a scheme that would allow me to use the brushed DC power supply you linked, and a rotary potentiometer, like below, combined with a spring action joy stick? This to allow me to move the quill up and down (and adjust it's speed of motion when needed.
Thanks.
2. Output from this runs through one of these to allow me to set speed:
Joy stick scale is small - but it is also fairly shallow. Could go on front or side near quill as could potentiometer.
Foot pedal is out.
Thanks for taking the time to give me the background so I had some depth.
Agreed.
Ha! Ok.
I've stood at the machine - and played with the Fanuc knob.
I have also positioned a joy stick.
The joy stick seems somewhat natural - it has a sprung return action, and moves up and down in the direction of the quill motion.
It also requires less fabrication.
Since I don't have a mill yet... less fabrication is desirable.
Now comes the part I am not so clear on.
Is there a scheme that would allow me to use the brushed DC power supply you linked, and a rotary potentiometer, like below, combined with a spring action joy stick? This to allow me to move the quill up and down (and adjust it's speed of motion when needed.
Thanks.
2. Output from this runs through one of these to allow me to set speed:
Joy stick scale is small - but it is also fairly shallow. Could go on front or side near quill as could potentiometer.
- Joined
- May 2, 2021
- Messages
- 330
*Edit/addition.
Using one of those nice looking knobs would also be viable - WITHOUT attaching a spindle or handle of any kind.
This too would be quick and avoid need for significant fabrication.
I think that is what you were suggesting above - just without the additional handles added.
So I should have asked - what would the schematic look if I combined one of the knobs below, with the DC power supply you above to drive the Quill up and down?
Using one of those nice looking knobs would also be viable - WITHOUT attaching a spindle or handle of any kind.
This too would be quick and avoid need for significant fabrication.
I think that is what you were suggesting above - just without the additional handles added.
So I should have asked - what would the schematic look if I combined one of the knobs below, with the DC power supply you above to drive the Quill up and down?