Beauty in The Beast: Webb 5BVK Barn Find/Conversion

[JimDawson]

I chose the spot for my controls to reflect my 50+ years of muscle memory of reaching up and to the left to control the spindle switch with my left hand. The spindle switch on almost all BP type machines is on the left of the belt housing. If you don't have that muscle memory then anywhere convenient is acceptable.

Your switch configuration depends on how you program the inputs on the VFD. On/Off/On would be OK. There are normally at least a half dozen switching options that can be programmed. In my case the For/Rev programmed/wired so a closed contact is reverse and that same contact open is forward. Start is a momentary contact closure. The common is wired through the E-stop switch so when pressed, the run command is open.

In the case of a For/Off/Rev switch you would need two NO contact blocks on the switch. You would want that twist release E-stop button in any case.

The Automation Direct out-of-stock items can be substituted with other items that are in stock. <insert nasty comment about current supply chain conditions here > Most of them you can mix parts between switches of the same series. I normally keep a few extra contact blocks around, you can buy them in packs of 5. You can also buy the bodies and operators separately to make up your own switches.

I would wire the VFD power into the cabinet main disconnect just as it is now, except use 2 wires (+ ground) rather than 3 as it is now. Mine is actually wired straight to a breaker in my shop main panel, I never turn it off.

You could always make a spacer for the front mounted location to give the depth needed, I think you need around 35mm behind the panel

With the mechanical variable speed you could just program the VFD to default to 60Hz and do all the speed adjustment with the mechanical adjustment. That method has worked for many years.

 

[Charlieman22]

Jim - thanks!
Good insights all around.

I chose the spot for my controls to reflect my 50+ years of muscle memory of reaching up and to the left to control the spindle switch with my left hand. The spindle switch on almost all BP type machines is on the left of the belt housing. If you don't have that muscle memory then anywhere convenient is acceptable.

Ha - I've seen a machinist doing that reach thing - to flip it on and off - while not even looking up... Makes sense.

I appreciate the patient response to my rumination / iterations.
The switches are important to me for both function and style.

My grand scheme is to take this thing to a Bridgeport green, with polished aluminum bits here and there.
I think it could be pretty spectacular.
I'll park the details of that discussion for the time being - but that is affecting my thinking around options - even for switches.

I'm sure a rheostat would be nicer to operate speed control.
I may get there in the end.
But first move will probably be the 60hz program and manual control as you note.

My homes main power from the street comes in to a box on the back side of the wall where the machine is.
I could literally use a nock-out in it's box and then add 220 power to the back side of the machine via plug or direct wire.
It can have it's own breaker.
Considering entirely removing the box on the side of the machine to allow paint - sooner rather than later.
Does this change your opinion at all - or are there other reasons you would incorporate the wiring into the box out of the gate?

You could always make a spacer for the front mounted location to give the depth needed, I think you need around 35mm behind the panel

Good thought.

Your switch configuration depends on how you program the inputs on the VFD

Didn't realize this was the case. Gives me some options.
Maybe a joystick would be cool.
Will have to ponder that this eve.

And since we are there - quick update.
I tested all three servos.
Work beautifully.
The brake wires we saw coming out of the spindle solenoid go to the spindle brake.
It's an air cylinder with an electric solenoid.
So with no air pressure on it - It appears to be off.
Suspect it will engage when I put air pressure to it.
Appears to be 100V - which must disengage it when it get's power.
My moment of zen from today:

Surprised this is 100V?

 

[JimDawson]

Jim - thanks!
Good insights all around.

Ha - I've seen a machinist doing that reach thing - to flip it on and off - while not even looking up... Makes sense.

My pleasure

My homes main power from the street comes in to a box on the back side of the wall where the machine is.
I could literally use a nock-out in it's box and then add 220 power to the back side of the machine via plug or direct wire.
It can have it's own breaker.

Are you saying that your breaker panel is behind the machine? No problem in that case. A 4x4x2 box on the wall would be fine. You can plug the rest of the controls into the nearest 120V outlet.

Considering entirely removing the box on the side of the machine to allow paint - sooner rather than later.
Does this change your opinion at all - or are there other reasons you would incorporate the wiring into the box out of the gate?

For purely manual operation there is very little reason to have the box on there. You do have some 120V (100V) control wiring for the power draw bar and spindle brake. That could be stuffed into a temporary box for the short term.

Didn't realize this was the case. Gives me some options.
Maybe a joystick would be cool.
Will have to ponder that this eve.

Not sure just how a joystick would work there.

And since we are there - quick update.
I tested all three servos.
Work beautifully.

That is awesome

The brake wires we saw coming out of the spindle solenoid go to the spindle brake.
It's an air cylinder with an electric solenoid.
So with no air pressure on it - It appears to be off.
Suspect it will engage when I put air pressure to it.
Appears to be 100V - which must disengage it when it get's power.

Ah, OK. My guess is that the solenoid is energized to apply the brake when the buttons are pushed for the power drawbar.

Surprised this is 100V?

Not surprised at all, typical Japanese control voltage 30 years ago. It's 110V now, but that's at 50 Hz, so that's equivalent to 120V at 60Hz. That valve will operate fine on 120V. I have a bunch of similar valves in my lathe.

 

[Charlieman22]

Are you saying that your breaker panel is behind the machine? No problem in that case. A 4x4x2 box on the wall would be fine.

The wall behind my machine: It's an outside wall - and the homes first (of a few) electrical boxes is mounted outside. Standing on the outside - I can punch straight through a nock out and come through to the inside of the house (right behind my machine).

Not sure just how a joystick would work there.

This one (though I might have to add back an off off switch if it doesn't have a central no contact position) Could be set to be my forward reverse I think. Very Lost in Space. Kinda like it. https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ic_22mm_(ar22_series)/joysticks/ar22a0n-a0a0b

Not completely clear - but I think there is a "neutral" position between left and right where no contacts make connection (at least on the momentary one).

Do you think that would work?

Ah, OK. My guess is that the solenoid is energized to apply the brake when the buttons are pushed for the power drawbar.

Ah - good point. So maybe I need to think fully about what controls would be on the "manual" phase and include something for the power draw bar.
1. On off
2. Emergency stop
3. Spindle direction
4. Maybe spindle speed
5. Power draw bar & brake solenoid activation

On off could feasibly be same switch as forward reverse as previously discussed.
Power draw bar and brake would be momentary two way switch of some kind.
Uh boy - now I am kinda liking the idea of a joy stick for power draw bar - momentary design. Seems a natural. Needs to go two directions I assume? (120V, momentary, 2 NO position version).

The review I read on Amazon for a similar one to the link above said that it rested in the middle with no contacts mad - and only made contact when pushed left or right

Not surprised at all, typical Japanese control voltage 30 years ago. It's 110V now, but that's at 50 Hz, so that's equivalent to 120V at 60Hz. That valve will operate fine on 120V. I have a bunch of similar valves in my lathe.

Mill Fact
Thanks

 

[extropic]

Great news that the three servos run.

I wonder why the PO had the X servo unmounted?

Jim,
This is a closed loop control system, yes?
So there is an encoder on each servo motor?
If yes, is there a way he can do a simple test on each encoder without the controler/software operating?
Thanks for the great tutorial.

Charlie,
Excellent progress.

 

[Charlieman22]

I wonder why the PO had the X servo unmounted?

Good observation - & Interesting question.
The covers were off both the X & Y axis limit switches as well.
I'm not sure why.

Charlie,
Excellent progress.

Thanks!

 

[JimDawson]

The wall behind my machine: It's an outside wall - and the homes first (of a few) electrical boxes is mounted outside. Standing on the outside - I can punch straight through a nock out and come through to the inside of the house (right behind my machine).

OK, I'm confused. I have a free standing meter base and a distribution panel outside which guess you could call the main breaker panel. From this main panel the power splits out to the house, the pump house, the RV pad, and the shop. Each of those has it's own breaker panel. So is there a main breaker panel on the outside of that wall, next to the meter base?

This one (though I might have to add back an off off switch if it doesn't have a central no contact position) Could be set to be my forward reverse I think. Very Lost in Space. Kinda like it. https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ic_22mm_(ar22_series)/joysticks/ar22a0n-a0a0b

Not completely clear - but I think there is a "neutral" position between left and right where no contacts make connection (at least on the momentary one).

Do you think that would work?

I was just playing with one (I have one at my desk, I have a lot of stuff on my desk ) It does seem that the center position is neutral, but the one I have is a spring return to center. The one you linked to is a maintained position so not sure it it has a center stop position.

Ah - good point. So maybe I need to think fully about what controls would be on the "manual" phase and include something for the power draw bar.
1. On off
2. Emergency stop
3. Spindle direction
4. Maybe spindle speed
5. Power draw bar & brake solenoid activation

On off could feasibly be same switch as forward reverse as previously discussed.

That's really all you need.

Power draw bar and brake would be momentary two way switch of some kind.
Uh boy - now I am kinda liking the idea of a joy stick for power draw bar - momentary design. Seems a natural. Needs to go two directions I assume? (120V, momentary, 2 NO position version).

I would say that a momentary switch would work fine for the power drawbar, you could use a joystick for that. Yup, insert and release.

The review I read on Amazon for a similar one to the link above said that it rested in the middle with no contacts mad - and only made contact when pushed left or right

Most likely based on what I read in the specs.

Jim,
This is a closed loop control system, yes?
So there is an encoder on each servo motor?
If yes, is there a way he can do a simple test on each encoder without the controler/software operating?
Thanks for to great tutorial.
Charlie,

Yes it is a closed loop system, and there is most likely encoders on the servo motors. Short of powering them up with 5V and using a scope, I don't know how you would test them. On the other hand I really don't think it matters much, last I heard the plan was to use magnetic linear scales which are an order of magnitude better IMHO.

 

[extropic]

<snip the plan was to use magnetic linear scales which are an order of magnitude better IMHO.

Thanks for reminding me. Instead of using rotary encoders to determine axis position, the plan is to use the magnetic scales.

 

[Charlieman22]

Each of those has it's own breaker panel. So is there a main breaker panel on the outside of that wall, next to the meter base?

Exactly. The meter is there - and the main breaker panel is there - feeding other panels. Main panel has unused spaces. I previously had a 220 breaker installed - and brought the wires through the wall and put a 220 plug on the inside of the garage in the same area.

I was just playing with one (I have one at my desk, I have a lot of stuff on my desk ) It does seem that the center position is neutral, but the one I have is a spring return to center. The one you linked to is a maintained position so not sure it it has a center stop position.

Ha! Well - the spring return one seems ideal for engaging the the draw bar/brake to me. Nice action to make and better than a button for momentary - a wrist can do it if hands are deep in grease.

last I heard the plan was to use magnetic linear scales which are an order of magnitude better IMHO.

Caused a chuckle.
Plan hasn't changed.
Yet...
But I have been known...
(I have an email in to Ditron. Haven't gotten a response yet).

Ok - I'm going to do a bit of shopping.
Think I have my mind around basic needs - and I don't plan to spend a ton on these switches.
If I determine I want something different in the future - they will get replaced - but I have the basic plan now I think.

 

[Charlieman22]

Ok - Ditron just replied.
They are offering me the D80 (looks to be same specs with bit fancier screen) for $40 more than the D100. Any reason not to grab the nicer reader for the extra $40? (their product nomenclature is... confusing... to say the least).
D80 looks to be same functionality but nicer screen from my look.
Note - I could also add RPM to the D80 and again - it appears to be inexpensive as an upgrade.
What do we think?