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- Jun 27, 2016
- Messages
- 388
IMHO just get a HTP and be done with it, they are great machines. I think that they will even let you try them out.
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SMAW/Stick machines - options?
- Thread starter FlyFishn
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2016
- Messages
- 349
Well as soon as I get my truck back I'll head over and get the tombstone. Sounds like it might be some "fun" to get it loaded in the back of the truck - 400lbs+ of welder and cart up to a 1 ton truck bed/tailgate. I have a hoist idea with a winch to to do the hard part - just hope I can lift it high enough to clear the tailgate and have enough space above to hoist from.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2019
- Messages
- 142
I have a used Miller Dialarc HF which I use for stick welding.
220 single phase on a 100 amp breaker
Has a nice arc , no problem with 1/2” steel
Ac/dc
Cost me 700. With everything for stick and tig
On heavy duty dolly because it’s a bit heavy.
Runs 1/4” 6010 electrodes very nicely.
J
120 volt Mig is great for sheet metal but really doesn’t have the penetration for heavier welds. Stick welders have the penetration and are more suited for heavier welds. And yet then, if you have a 200 amp mig you can get good penetration, especially if you dial it in and go with pure CO2
For a reasonably priced 200 amp arch/stick welder, Northern Tools has the Reconditioned Klutch Klutch sti200 269.00
I‘m not sure why they only have reconditioned ones now. I purchased a new one 4 years ago and absolutely love this little welder. It’s inverted based so weighs only 20 pounds. I see Northern Tools also has a Century Lincoln sells an almost identical model without tig capabilities for 360.00 and then Lincoln has basically the same looking machine , with Tig & stick , but dialed down to 155 amps for 1200.00
It looks pretty damned close to the Klutch welder. But a lot more expensive.
Im at a loss as to why the brand new Klutch isn’t available anymore. Maybe it was a test for Lincoln. Who knows.? Or maybe just a logistics issue with CV19. Lots of logistics issues these days because of our trade wars with China. Not really a trade war per say...but we’re getting there. Tariffs and expulsion of the Houston Chinese Embassy because of spying. Anyway....the Klutch has a good warranty and I love this welder. It kicks butt. Klutch and it’s a Tig and stick welder ...200 amps too.
By the way. Unless you’ve had a pro show you how to TIG without a foot pedal and without being able to adjust the current up or down....I question how well an Arc-Pig is going to work. I know I was looking at those....and remember some good reviews. But that was on Welding Web site. And those guys are pros. I tried Tig without a foot pedal. It’s not easy. Doable yes. Easy....NO
For a reasonably priced 200 amp arch/stick welder, Northern Tools has the Reconditioned Klutch Klutch sti200 269.00
I‘m not sure why they only have reconditioned ones now. I purchased a new one 4 years ago and absolutely love this little welder. It’s inverted based so weighs only 20 pounds. I see Northern Tools also has a Century Lincoln sells an almost identical model without tig capabilities for 360.00 and then Lincoln has basically the same looking machine , with Tig & stick , but dialed down to 155 amps for 1200.00
It looks pretty damned close to the Klutch welder. But a lot more expensive.
Im at a loss as to why the brand new Klutch isn’t available anymore. Maybe it was a test for Lincoln. Who knows.? Or maybe just a logistics issue with CV19. Lots of logistics issues these days because of our trade wars with China. Not really a trade war per say...but we’re getting there. Tariffs and expulsion of the Houston Chinese Embassy because of spying. Anyway....the Klutch has a good warranty and I love this welder. It kicks butt. Klutch and it’s a Tig and stick welder ...200 amps too.
By the way. Unless you’ve had a pro show you how to TIG without a foot pedal and without being able to adjust the current up or down....I question how well an Arc-Pig is going to work. I know I was looking at those....and remember some good reviews. But that was on Welding Web site. And those guys are pros. I tried Tig without a foot pedal. It’s not easy. Doable yes. Easy....NO
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All good thoughts.
With respect to TIG - I would rather get a dedicated machine. If it is going to cost me around $600 to retro-fit an AC machine to do quasi-TIG then why not put that $600 in to a better stand-alone TIG machine - and have another stick machine also?
Since I have the stick part covered with the Idealarc (and heavy stick also - I do see that it goes to 300 amps on AC) there isn't any need for stick on a 2nd machine, most certainly not heavy stick. It would be nice to have, though. And where I want the TIG ability is on the lighter end of the spectrum and welding aluminum. I'm sure if I had TIG I would use it on some heavier structural stuff, but maybe up to 3/16", possibly occasionally 1/4" (more likely a lighter part welded to a thicker part that would be that 3/16-1/4").
With respect to TIG - I would rather get a dedicated machine. If it is going to cost me around $600 to retro-fit an AC machine to do quasi-TIG then why not put that $600 in to a better stand-alone TIG machine - and have another stick machine also?
Since I have the stick part covered with the Idealarc (and heavy stick also - I do see that it goes to 300 amps on AC) there isn't any need for stick on a 2nd machine, most certainly not heavy stick. It would be nice to have, though. And where I want the TIG ability is on the lighter end of the spectrum and welding aluminum. I'm sure if I had TIG I would use it on some heavier structural stuff, but maybe up to 3/16", possibly occasionally 1/4" (more likely a lighter part welded to a thicker part that would be that 3/16-1/4").
Totally agree Flyfishin. The Klutch has Tig Capabilities but not much to dial it in. I also have a Tweco Fabricator but it’s only a 120 volt machine. Even with being able to dial volts and amps in on the Tweco, without a foot pedal or finger based adjuster of amps....I have a lot of trouble with TIG. TIG welding is an art form. Most guys can learn it but it takes practice.
That said...really makes it hard to Tig if you can‘t quickly adjust the Amps. Have to ramp up and then down once you get the puddle going.
After reading WeldingWeb.com forums....almost everyone says the same. You’re not going to get a good puddle going without the foot pedal.
The guys using the Arch-Pig Mostly appear to be professional welders who are using diesel powered Bobcat style welders on the back of their truck. It just helps them get the arch going. It’s basically some capacitors. Sure, these guys have mastered it but they have been welding every day since they were 15 years old. That’s a huge difference than a hobby guy. If you want to be able to lay down Tig welds like you see on YouTube, get a dedicated machine. Make sure you have a foot pedal.
fwiw, with a Bobcat Diesel welder, I believe you dial in the specs....and then start welding. The throttle is part of the specs. Some guys doing TiG on Bobcats have rigged up choke cables to their Tig cable so they can kind of adjust the output. But...none of us are in that camp. These guys can weld anything and everything and just know their craft.
By the way. Other than mig aluminum.....doing TIG Aluminum absolutely must be AC voltage for Tig. It has a cleaning affect. Lots of great YouTube videos on all this stuff. Welding Tips with Jody is big on TiG.
Chucky - (something??) is also real good. But jumping to Ac Dc Tig will put you over 1000.00 and you’re going to need 100 %Argon tank. For some of the stainless...I think they use a helium mix.
That said...really makes it hard to Tig if you can‘t quickly adjust the Amps. Have to ramp up and then down once you get the puddle going.
After reading WeldingWeb.com forums....almost everyone says the same. You’re not going to get a good puddle going without the foot pedal.
The guys using the Arch-Pig Mostly appear to be professional welders who are using diesel powered Bobcat style welders on the back of their truck. It just helps them get the arch going. It’s basically some capacitors. Sure, these guys have mastered it but they have been welding every day since they were 15 years old. That’s a huge difference than a hobby guy. If you want to be able to lay down Tig welds like you see on YouTube, get a dedicated machine. Make sure you have a foot pedal.
fwiw, with a Bobcat Diesel welder, I believe you dial in the specs....and then start welding. The throttle is part of the specs. Some guys doing TiG on Bobcats have rigged up choke cables to their Tig cable so they can kind of adjust the output. But...none of us are in that camp. These guys can weld anything and everything and just know their craft.
By the way. Other than mig aluminum.....doing TIG Aluminum absolutely must be AC voltage for Tig. It has a cleaning affect. Lots of great YouTube videos on all this stuff. Welding Tips with Jody is big on TiG.
Chucky - (something??) is also real good. But jumping to Ac Dc Tig will put you over 1000.00 and you’re going to need 100 %Argon tank. For some of the stainless...I think they use a helium mix.
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Thanks for all the input - lots of stuff there in your posts @Tim9.
I agree with the foot pedal on TIG. One of the courses I took in college was 1 quarter dedicated to metallurgy and welding. We started with forging and went through every mainstream process up to TIG (did not do gas welding, but we did gas heating/bending, cutting, and brazing). That course was the only period of time I've TIG welded - and it was with a foot pedal.
If I could have spent more time on any process in that class it would have been TIG, followed by stick. I recall we ran several different types of rods and one of the rods (don't recall the code) had to be pre-heated in an oven to work. We ran the rods cold and left out and right out of the oven to see the difference. What I don't recall is if the oven trick was just to dry out the rods/keep the coating from absorbing moisture from the air alone (I know that was part of it), or if the rod temperature actually was important. It seems to me that the temperature of the rod was important (like the filler metal and coating had to be held at a constant 400 degrees or something to get the coating to the right state to work right when burned?) Either way, I do recall the difference in arc performance and weld-ability between a cold rod and one out of the oven was night and day different.
In any event, yea - lots to brush up on thats for sure. Without the ability to do it - how does one brush up? For now I'll be set on stick - but TIG is a whole other ball game. There isn't a more controllable and precise process. But it takes the right gear to do it.
On the subject of the Arc Pig and capacitors - I am curious what that circuit looks like. There are guys that are setting up transformer machines with thyristors controlled with a pot (think foot switch here - the rocking of the foot switch rotates the pot) that, in turn, varies the output of the transformer to give some control to the arc current. I would be curious to study that circuitry some more.
Another thought I had is that of inverter technology. Take the output of a transformer machine, rectify it, filter it, then supply that DC to a controlled set of IGBT's. The input to the IGBT's can be set up pretty easy. If you want a triangle wave just make a circuit that provides the triangle wave as a proper input control signal level to the IGBT's then you have triangle wave welding output. Same thing for pulsed DC - what pulse width and frequency do you want? Make a control circuit that will set that input signal in motion, send it to the IGBT's, and you have a pulsed DC output. That's getting pretty deep - but I'm sure that kind of circuitry can be built. And if I build it then I am not relying on a company's trade-marked design and control over how the circuit works, therefore if something burns out I can fix it, or if something burns out and the parts are no longer available, I can find a substitute set of parts and/or make a design change to accommodate a new part that has different characteristics than what might be available. Breaking it down to control boards for different functions makes that easier - one function won't kill the whole set up.
Lots to think about.
I agree with the foot pedal on TIG. One of the courses I took in college was 1 quarter dedicated to metallurgy and welding. We started with forging and went through every mainstream process up to TIG (did not do gas welding, but we did gas heating/bending, cutting, and brazing). That course was the only period of time I've TIG welded - and it was with a foot pedal.
If I could have spent more time on any process in that class it would have been TIG, followed by stick. I recall we ran several different types of rods and one of the rods (don't recall the code) had to be pre-heated in an oven to work. We ran the rods cold and left out and right out of the oven to see the difference. What I don't recall is if the oven trick was just to dry out the rods/keep the coating from absorbing moisture from the air alone (I know that was part of it), or if the rod temperature actually was important. It seems to me that the temperature of the rod was important (like the filler metal and coating had to be held at a constant 400 degrees or something to get the coating to the right state to work right when burned?) Either way, I do recall the difference in arc performance and weld-ability between a cold rod and one out of the oven was night and day different.
In any event, yea - lots to brush up on thats for sure. Without the ability to do it - how does one brush up? For now I'll be set on stick - but TIG is a whole other ball game. There isn't a more controllable and precise process. But it takes the right gear to do it.
On the subject of the Arc Pig and capacitors - I am curious what that circuit looks like. There are guys that are setting up transformer machines with thyristors controlled with a pot (think foot switch here - the rocking of the foot switch rotates the pot) that, in turn, varies the output of the transformer to give some control to the arc current. I would be curious to study that circuitry some more.
Another thought I had is that of inverter technology. Take the output of a transformer machine, rectify it, filter it, then supply that DC to a controlled set of IGBT's. The input to the IGBT's can be set up pretty easy. If you want a triangle wave just make a circuit that provides the triangle wave as a proper input control signal level to the IGBT's then you have triangle wave welding output. Same thing for pulsed DC - what pulse width and frequency do you want? Make a control circuit that will set that input signal in motion, send it to the IGBT's, and you have a pulsed DC output. That's getting pretty deep - but I'm sure that kind of circuitry can be built. And if I build it then I am not relying on a company's trade-marked design and control over how the circuit works, therefore if something burns out I can fix it, or if something burns out and the parts are no longer available, I can find a substitute set of parts and/or make a design change to accommodate a new part that has different characteristics than what might be available. Breaking it down to control boards for different functions makes that easier - one function won't kill the whole set up.
Lots to think about.
personally, I was very suspicious of inverter based machines. I too was sold on transformers because they are rock solid. But they are heavy. And it’s a pain to even roll out my Miller 211 mig. My Klutch was purchased after I had my mig. And I absolutely love the bead and penetration I get from the miller mig. It’s a real nice machine.
That said....like I was saying I purchased the Klutch because I wanted a stick machine and I was apprehensive about inverters. Lots of horror stories on Amazon reviews of off brand generics from China that are junk.
but, from reviews I learned that the Klutch appears to be a copied Italian branded welder....made in China. I wanted a machine I could bring back to a store if it died. I wanted a machine that had a big box store backing it up. And I couldn’t justify cost of a Miller or Lincoln.
Anyway, the Klutch came with a 3 year warranty when I purchased mine. When it arrived it said only a one year warranty so I called Northern Tool...showed them the web site description claiming a 3 year....and they did adjust my service agreement. It was all for nothing because the machine has worked flawlessly.
I’d love to take apart the cover of that Lincoln, just to see if it’s basically the same as the Klutch inside. Wouldn’t surprise me.
anyway, an inverter machine from a company which backs it up and you don’t have to mail it back is the way to go. I really like how easy it is to strike an arch using the inverter machine. It easy.
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Just on a side note. I went down this road. And I was an avid reader on Welding Web. I really wanted to learn it better. So...long story short, the Liberal Arts Program of the local Loyola University was moving and selling all of their older tools. I was just getting started and I purchased an old Keller power hacksaw and a massive Airco Bumblebee 250 welder. The price was right, but it’s a damned beast. Must be a few hundred pounds of copper inside. Anyway, I had plans for building a bigger workshop but they never evolved. Still have it in storage covered with a tarp. Damned thing must weigh 550 pounds. It’s huge.
oh well.....what more can I say, I like tools. It’s a sickness
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