Slightly off Topic - Wrench Types and Techniques- Removing Stubborn Nuts

I have the manifold on the mill for inspection. Measuring the surface on a good marble flat there is a 40 thou gap between the high and low, it is high in the middle. There is a gap at both ends. The manifold appears to be made from 3 castings. I am wondering if there is some play in the press fitting that allows for some alignment?
I don't have a true straight edge long enough for the entire length, but enough for 4 cylinders, that should give a good indication of the head.
I checked the turbo part numbers and it appears to be undersized; the engine runs hot so my suspicion is the turbo is undersized. That may help explain the manifold warp.
I plan to resurface the manifold. It will be a carefull setup project as the mill travel is 18 inches, enough for 4 cylinders.
(all in all this is a bit like the rusty old car project, each panel removed uncovers more rust behind it. :( )

That manifold is three pieces so that it can incorporate expansion joints. You can buy the pieces separately, but expansion is the reason. They are a tight metal fit (Not pressed, but you've got to twist and push to get 'em together), and there's a thin metal U-cup seal inside of there. Those joints will give "some" degree of freedom to make up a gap. They're also (most likely) kinda somewhat "frozen in place". They'll be very stiff, but each piece needs to be supported independantly. If the ports are flat, I'd prop it up on standoffs by the bolt holes, and give it a good "palm smack" to see if I couldn't "straighten" it some. If it's loose enough to do that, and doesn't fall apart.... It might not need surgery. If it does need that, you'll want to support ALL of it, as the vibration can loosen it up pretty easily.

A good, working, non-leaking manifold will often come out with that much warping. I wouldn't go putting it back like that, but if you can coax it to under 20 thousandths.... I'd sent it.

One thing to be EXTREMELY careful with, is if you mill each of those sections to dead flat across the whole, entire assembly, it MUST still come out so that the expansion joints align. That means however you fixture it, each of the three pieces of manifold must be fully, independantly supported in your fixturing, and the best way to do that is to fixture it as one whole, complete assembly. Those joints can and will move on you, and independant fixturing leads to an "offset" in the surface. That's a lot harder to "bend" into place than a "warp", which when pulled out, still leaves six coplanar surfaces.

Another thought- If you suspect interference with what you believe to be a more correct turbo (I can't speculate on that part), be aware that there were manifolds that would mount the turbo high or low, and more forward or more rearward. That's more part numbers that would be listed under the ESN for that engine.
 
I am trying to separate a turbo charger from the exhaust manifold. The manifold gasket needs replacing.

There are 4 studs in the manifold and 4 corresponding nuts holding the turbo charger on. The manifold - turbo charger pair are on the vehicle and one of the manifold bolts is shielded by the turbo charger. I believe the turbo charger must be removed first.

One of the 4 nuts is accessible with either a box end or crows foot, the second nut is accessible by a box end. The other 2 nuts are only accessible with an open end wrench. I am concerned if I try to loosen those last 2 with an open wrench I will round the corners of the nuts and then be really stuck.

Are there intermediate wrench types that are half way between a box end and an open end? It would have to slid on via 2 sides and then rotate to 'lock'.

I haven't tried heat. Will simply starting the engine and waiting for the manifold to get to 500 degrees or help? Or is this method band and I need to try direct heat on the nuts as best as I can?

What have I missed? I can't be the first one to run into something like this. After braking things for decades I have learned to slow down. However at this point I am well and truly stuck. (although I haven't made is worse yet.) Thanks in advance - Dan
I have a torch and heated the nut up and turn the nut red hot.

Remember the stud could real proble if it is damage too.

Dave
 
Thank you for the input on the 3 section manifold. Based on that input I checked each section on a good marble surface plate for gaps. Each section had 3 to 4 thou gaps. The sections are not perflectly flat.
Tuesday I will clean the head and try a dry run install at 20 ft lbs and check for gaps.
 
Manifold Update:
I partially installed the manifold without gaskets. The center section installed cleanly. Initially the rear section had a gap, however with very light torque that section also closed to no measurable gap.
Initially the front section had a gap but that was due an alignment issue and the edge was cought on a ridge of carbon.
Cylinders 3, 4, 5, and 6 are B+ or better on both the manifold and head. #2 is a C- on the head, there may be remaining original gasket remaining on the head. #1 is a different story. The manifold surface is not smooth, there is an edge on the outer edge, and the head shows some corrosion.
There is recent opinion that it is not best practice to use an air rotary tool to clean these surfaces. I plan to make a light pass on #2 and a pass on #1. I look forward to your inputs.
 
Manifold Update:
I partially installed the manifold without gaskets. The center section installed cleanly. Initially the rear section had a gap, however with very light torque that section also closed to no measurable gap.
Initially the front section had a gap but that was due an alignment issue and the edge was cought on a ridge of carbon.
Cylinders 3, 4, 5, and 6 are B+ or better on both the manifold and head. #2 is a C- on the head, there may be remaining original gasket remaining on the head. #1 is a different story. The manifold surface is not smooth, there is an edge on the outer edge, and the head shows some corrosion.


You've got to end up with a sealing surface. I don't know which type of gaskets you have. If it's the MLS (layered steel) gaskets, you've got to above all else preserve the "ring" where the ridge makes pressure. If you've got "conventional" gaskets, you need a sealing surface all the way around. And you've got to get them close enough to one plane that the manifold can reach without undue stresses.

There is recent opinion that it is not best practice to use an air rotary tool to clean these surfaces. I plan to make a light pass on #2 and a pass on #1. I look forward to your inputs.

You're gonna get me going.....

That's not a recent opinion, that's been a fact since they invented the things. Those things have no business near an open engine. That is the WHOLE story. The beginning, the middle, and the end. The reason it's still a discussion is because it's easy to make shiny. The only opinions "endorsing" this are from people who take lazy over facts and evidence.

That said..... You're working on a coach, not a line haul truck. A million miles isn't going to happen to that engine. Access can sometimes be more expensive than a full on recovery from bad practices gone wrong. Life is hard, and sometimes the lines are blurry.

On the engine side, you can not let that debris (somewhat the metal, but mostly the abrasive residue), you can not let that get into the exhaust ports. Even the ones that look closed.. That will get pulled in (yes, pulled in. Before the engine starts, due to the normal leakage of the rings, there's a small but surprisingly tangible vaccum pocket there at teh bottom of the "would have been" power stroke) to the cylinder as you start the engine.) All that stuff that won't blow out (dust mostly, chunks will blow out) It gets sprayed out of the air by the diesel fuel and will be on the cylinder walls from now to the end of days..... You've got to stuff the ports full of "something" that's going to keep it from getting down in there. Once it's down by the valve/seat area, you're not getting it out.

The manifold is a bit easier since the turbo is off of it at this point, so long as it's not all slobbery in there, you can clean it pretty easily. And if you don't, it's not good, but it'll pass. For a low miles engine..... I wouldn't sweat the grit so much on that one.

And then the "flat" thing... If you're using a rotary tool to make a flat thing, you will fail. If you're using it to grind off "stuck gasket" or "stuck carbon" or a rust ridge, or whatever... At the same time it's taking the metal in the local area around that So by the time you flatten the "bump", you've made a crater on a larger scale.

All in all, the cookie discs and the whisker biscuits (and whatever cool name's you've heard for them...) are best reserved for SMALL removal, or even just softening of high spots so that the gasket can do it's job with some degree of durability.

Were that me, well, I know it's not an ideal world, and I "might" actually be convinced to turn to something aggressive like that (and potentially dangerous to the engine if it's not respected). I wouldn't use it for bulk cleanup at all, but for "touch up" level work. That's where you see the predictable, big (expensive) comebacks is when somebody thinks they can deck the whole right side of a cylinder head with a tool like that... Folks that "get away with it", myself included on occasion, know and respect the risks as just that. The risk that something gets by you or gets away from you. That approach tends to have a lot less odds of having tangible repercussions.

The typ of wheels you use, if you're gonna, (which I recommend against, but again, real world compromises are a real thing some times...), let me clear up another "opinion" thing...

There are NO safe wheels. Depending on who you talk to, you will likely find that WHATEVER their favorite type of disc is, that is the "safe" type. It's not opinion, they ALL do this. They all throw microscopic and macroscopic "swarf", and they all shed abrasive..... I'll tell you this though, first of all, brand matters. The cheaper they are, the worse it gets. Second of all, the "surface conditioning discs" (scotch brite discs, "cookie discs", etc) shed a LOT of dust, a LOT of abrasive impregnated fiber filler, and make a HUGE mess. 3M "Bristle Discs" (whisker buscuits) still make a mess, but they throw "less" abrasives. (Yes, they are impregnated with abrasives). Those will still not be "safe", but they are by far the most managable option if you have to make stuff happen... The "green" flavor is the one you want. It still leaves a finish that a gasket can seal to with no sealer (that would burn right out where you're gonna put it...), but it's aggressive enough that you can get a high spot down easier. The finer ones... Somehow, some way, the finer grits end up making the big crater around the little bump thing I mentioned even worse. I guess yo've got to have something aggressive enough to just get in and get out... And like I said, brand matters here. Other brands may be equal or better, but I couldn't tell you which one. Typically, when I find a brand of "somebody" making one of these bristle discs that look like the 3M thing, whatever you run it on just ends up with a white, red, yellow, or green shadow over everything in the vicintity... So hence my preference for a "go to" when I've got to do sketchy chit...

One other thing, as you're looking for buildp/rust/scale/old gaskets, and trying to distinguish that from actual metal high spots- Anything that's "on" the metal is (probably) brittle. I use a teeny, tiny little ball pein hammer a lot. Or I'll tap on half of a needle scaler needle against a surface. Rusted scale willl come off in chunks that way. Just be respectful, you're not looking for a golf ball finish on the rest of the metal. Another tool that I use a lot for manifold/exhaust joints is a cheap, crappy, stinks like baby vomit wood chisel set. I made gasket scrapers out of them. (Basically just a little angle on the "flat" side so they skate flat on the part while your hand is around the handle). Those are "strike through" with a metal cap for hitting. Given that they're cheap, both quick and EASY to sharpen (something flat with sand paper on it...) I take a LOT of manifold/turbo/exhaust flange crap off with those chisels. Don't "hammer", just "tink, tink, tink, they do quite well. It wrecks 'em quick of course, but a quick swish on the paper brings 'em right back. The chunks o' crap stay larger (safer for an engine than fine stuff), and it minimizes, if not eliminates the need to resort to other options.
 
Thank you. I appreciate the experience.

The manifold is in the garage and the engine is 12 miles away. The manifold had 'heat welded' thin gasket material that would not come off. I tried every form of scraper I could get, and lightly tapping the material with the head of a ball peen hammer. That got some larger pieces, about 40% in total. I then tried a soft steel brush on a drill, no progress. I then used the air rotary on what was left. I stopped when there were no remaining gasket metal on the manifold.

I am getting a new turbo, it is still on the Fed Ex truck so no worry there.

I also tried the scrappers on the head with no luck. I was hesitant to use the hammer there. There was remaining metal gasket there as well, however it did not seem to be as hard to remove. I put paper towels in the intake ports and used a fine wire brush in the head surface. This created some fine rust dust in the air, I was careful to under do rather than over do. I would say the head was 12% of the work of the manifold. (I will remove the open air intake boot and clean it prior the assembly.)

I have a machinist straight edge. The manifold is in 3 'sections'. Adjacent cylinders 2 - 5 are square across all sides to within 2 thou. However the furthest ends of both 1 and 6 fall off, that is have a gap when measured from the straight edge being square on 2 measuring 1 and on 5 measuring 6. 6 overall is not too bad, however cylinder 1 measured a gap of about 12 thou. There was no leak on 1 or 6 before I removed the manifold. I am stumped on this. If it weren't for the gap on 1 I would say everything is good.

The gasket is in three sections, 2 cylinders each. They are metal on the surfaces, I have no idea what the interior is made of. I don't have any idea of how much they will compress to fill compensate for any gaps. 12 thou seems like too much. This is the remaining open issue. Any thoughts on the range a gasket can fill?
 
Well, like I say, I save it for last, but I'm not above doing what it takes if the risk doesn't outweight the alternative. The biggest key to pulling off "stupid chit that shouldn't be done" is to know full well that you're cheating, and manage the risks with care and dilligence...

Those "doubled up" style gaskets are a conventional gasket. They seal over the whole face, and are more forgivigng than the MLS gaskets. (Multi-layer steel). They literally look like five to seven layers of steel shim stock that's riveted together, with a ridge in the metal designed to "squish" to the mating parts. Your gaskets can seal in any continuous path through the area that they cover, whereas the MLS variety tend to need the raised ring area to be in pretty darned good condition. You can call that a bonus.

I work (mostly) on a fleet, I usually don't have to do the same guarantee as I do in retail, but from what you're describing, I think you'll get away with bolting stuff back as is. I don't have Cat information any more, but I'll guarantee you that the head and the manifold are out of spec. There are absolutely retail shops out there that won't put back a used exhaust manifold at all. In my world, I would not sweat that number one dropping off by 12 thousandths. The manifolds most always "unbend" when they are released, it's heat stresses in there, as the exhaust gas just hammers the "outside" wall of them, and the head is constantly cooling them from the flange side. What I look for is the gaps with the middle cylinders (two and four) bolted to the block (up against it, but finger tight is fine), I sleep good if I can see .0.020 inches at the ends. (That's my number, not anybody's spec's). I've shipped a lot worse if they close up with little to no force on teh bolts and don't put up a fight, AND they kind of overall look to be "bent" in a fairly smooth arch. If there's a "localized bend" that explains more of the shape change, so it's gonna take up all of the flex in one spot, then I worry.

Concrete advice is hard to do when my greasy paws aren't on the parts, but from what you're describing in this and previous posts, your situation sounds like something that I'd have to fix "properly" if you dropped it off at my shop to be repaired at retail, but on my fleet, essentially (not really, but kind of) working on my own stuff and taking my own risk, it sounds like a head/manifold that I'd probably put back together and run it.
 
Everything has arrived, the turbo and the gaskets. The turbo is a near perfect replacement, the diameter of the boost turbo output is just a few mm smaller in diameter, nothing that can't be managed with the clamp. Loosening the 8 air casting clamp bolts allowed the housing to be rotated so the exhaust port aligned. The manifold to oil feed angle was good.

The initial adjustment on the wastegate may be slightly different. The new one appears to be slightly short meaning the resting angle is less. It could mean the original turbo was aligned to have the wastegate partially open. I will remove and check. (I understand it is touchy getting the rod back on. )

The plan is to reinstall everything tomorrow.

Thank you again for all the valued input.
 
I'd rather pull the whole manifold and deal with it on the workbench than risk stripping the nuts with an open end. Exhaust bolts suck...
Yes sir, they suck. This is what I do on a daily basis. A picture would help as well as the vehicle specifics. Most likely have tackled this exact job. Heat really is the key. Heat then soak, then remove.if you round one, don’t panic, there’s sockets such as turbo sockets that are designed to remove rounded nuts. If you can get a torch in there that the tickets but I understand if you can’t
 
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