Nontoxic masculinity

[strantor]

1. I think I would have asked her to define “toxic masculinity.” She probably would have described the boy’s father’s failings (assuming the marriage ended in divorce). Then I would have asked her what a man should be like. She might have given you a better answer than you would predicted. Too many men are not a credit to their sex.

Good point. I inferred a good deal without asking, but it was not a totally uneducated guess. I've known her since she was born. She is the type that is attracted to a certain kind of mate who is not healthy for her (or for anyone). She will say she wants a certain kind of guy and she has those kinds of guys in her life but pays them no attention. When she finds herself attracted to someone, it's the other kind of guy. Everyone who knows her can see the writing on the wall but she can't. Then after the inevitability happens she asks "why are all men like this?"

2. Spankings are not beatings. Let me repeat that: spankings are not beatings. But even parents who oppose corporal punishment should decide whether it’s spanking they oppose or all punishment. Too often it’s the latter because they want little buddies instead of future adults. The principle of consequences for misbehavior should drive the choices, and spanking doesn’t work for all children. Grounding, loss of privileges, extra work duty around the house—those can also provide consequences. Consistency and proportionality is a must, and must be delivered without visible anger. Angry parents teach anger, and real men control their emotions when it’s appropriate to do so.

Thank you. This is how I feel to the letter but I did not trust myself to try and elucidate it here as I am prone to saying things in ways that make others take offense when I meant no offense. This part right here is IMO the most important part of what you said: "must be delivered without visible anger." My dad never spanked when angry and neither do I. When you get angry and just start wailing on a kid, that's abuse. Corporal punishment is something very different. There is a process. I touched on the process in post #1 but I didn't stress the importance of doing it in a calm manner and making sure the kid understands what's going on and that you love them, and it's precisely because you love them, that you must correct their behavior so that they can grow up to be good. And this is true whether the vehicle of correction is a belt or a timeout or whatever. The kid needs to understand the situation well enough to explain it to you, before you administer punishment. And they need to know that it's done out of love.

3. A single boy in a house full of females needs his own room.

4. Regular church is a good idea, but churches are full of humans like everywhere else. Attentiveness required as everywhere. Look for one that preaches principles more than rules. Look for one that worships God. Some churches have “Ranger” groups for boys—an alternative to modern Scouting.

5. Not all boys benefit from martial arts. Not all boys need to be athletic. Neither is required for masculinity. But work, fitness, and self-reliance are part of the formula, as is curiosity. There are lots of ways to achieve this. Books about boys doing boyish things well that are also entertaining should always be on the shelf and available. In my youth, that included the Hardy Boys, but those are too dated. I don’t know what books are like that these days, but they are worth seeking out. Real men read. Don’t rely on the Internet to fill that void—it is too—toxic—and undisciplined.

6. Toys should promote build creativity. Lego is good, for example, but not the prescribed kits. Get the raw blocks instead.

7. Do not expect a boy to be “the man of the house.” Growing up is a process of expanding privileges and responsibilities. Going too fast can be as much of a problem as going too slow.

Rick “enough for now” Denney

Agreed on all counts. Regarding #4, I am not a believer but I was raised by one, and the principles that I learned from him are what I pass down to my kids. I think that church (the right church at least) would be a net positive experience for her and her kids. I would go to church myself, to benefit from the positive aspects of it, if I didn't feel like a total fraud being in there.

 

[SLK001]

I have a daughter that was "difficult" when she was a teenager, and I'm not talking about just a few slamming of doors.

When someone slammed their door on me, I removed the door and said, "Doors are a privilege in my house. If in 6 weeks, you have demonstrated enough respect for me and the rest of your family, we can talk about restoring your door privileges." One temper tantrum is all it took to instill the proper respect for their doors.

 

[strantor]

When someone slammed their door on me, I removed the door and said, "Doors are a privilege in my house. If in 6 weeks, you have demonstrated enough respect for me and the rest of your family, we can talk about restoring your door privileges." One temper tantrum is all it took to instill the proper respect for their doors.

All the bedroom doors in my house (except my own) have been off at one point or another, not because of slamming, but because of locking. At some point when they're little they get the idea to lock the door and do something mischievous on the other side (mix chocolate milk with finger paint, cut sister's doll hair off, etc.) and they get told once, "next time I come to investigate the ominous silence and find this door locked, I'm taking the door off." Then it happens, and I do it. It's a pretty jarring experience for them and they stand there wide-eyed at how their room was just transformed from a private sanctuary into an open terrarium in the span of a minute. The door doesn't have to stay off very long, couple days at most, and then it doesn't happen again for months or years.

My 17 y/o still doesn't even lock her door even though she's allowed to now. She will need to get in the habit before she leaves home though.

 

[higgite]

Why would any child's bedroom door be lockable from inside the room?

Tom

 

[strantor]

Why would any child's bedroom door be lockable from inside the room?

Tom

All my doors are. And all the doors in my last two houses were. I thought that was normal. They're not deadbolts or anything, you can unlock them by shoving a toothpick in the hole. I considered replacing the knobs with ones that don't lock, but decided against it. Giving them the opportunity to break rules and teaching them to not do it, I think is more constructive than putting them in an environment where all avenues to wrongdoing have been barricaded. Sure, sometimes you have to take away the opportunity for the sake of safety (ex: "alright, toddler; I'm going to put this bottle of bleach under the sink and walk away, and when I come back you better not be drinking it" is obviously stupid) but when it's not absolutely necessary I rather not.

 

[sdelivery]

1. I think I would have asked her to define “toxic masculinity.” She probably would have described the boy’s father’s failings (assuming the marriage ended in divorce). Then I would have asked her what a man should be like. She might have given you a better answer than you would have predicted. Too many men are not a credit to their sex.

2. Spankings are not beatings. Let me repeat that: spankings are not beatings. But even parents who oppose corporal punishment should decide whether it’s spanking they oppose or all punishment. Too often it’s the latter because they want little buddies instead of future adults. The principle of consequences for misbehavior should drive the choices, and spanking doesn’t work for all children. Grounding, loss of privileges, extra work duty around the house—those can also provide consequences. Consistency and proportionality is a must, and must be delivered without visible anger. Angry parents teach anger, and real men control their emotions when it’s appropriate to do so.

3. A single boy in a house full of females needs his own room.

4. Regular church is a good idea, but churches are full of humans like everywhere else. Attentiveness required as everywhere. Look for one that preaches principles more than rules. Look for one that worships God. Some churches have “Ranger” groups for boys—an alternative to modern Scouting.

5. Not all boys benefit from martial arts. Not all boys need to be athletic. Neither is required for masculinity. But work, fitness, and self-reliance are part of the formula, as is curiosity. There are lots of ways to achieve this. Books about boys doing boyish things well that are also entertaining should always be on the shelf and available. In my youth, that included the Hardy Boys, but those are too dated. I don’t know what books are like that these days, but they are worth seeking out. Real men read. Don’t rely on the Internet to fill that void—it is too—toxic—and undisciplined.

6. Toys should promote build creativity. Lego is good, for example, but not the prescribed kits. Get the raw blocks instead.

7. Do not expect a boy to be “the man of the house.” Growing up is a process of expanding privileges and responsibilities. Going too fast can be as much of a problem as going too slow.

Rick “enough for now” Denney

Rick, I approve of this post. It says so many of the things I was just going to bring up.
BUT ONE MORE THOUGHT....I have found , I have to decide I am going to sacrifice something in order to make things work, this sacrifice is worth it, keep it to yourself so it doesn't taint what you are trying to do.
The "timing " probably will never be "right"
so don't wait until your "ducks are in a row" and if you need help , ask.
It's important that youth see real life and how adults have to struggle to balance it all.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Masculinity is only toxic to militant feminists.
What is surprising is how even the most strident feminist becomes reasonable - docile even - when you are there changing their flat tire, fixing a leaky faucet or clogged sink or oiling their sticky door lock.

 

[MrCrankyface]

Been hesitant to write this and not looking to ruffle feathers, but if one looks up toxic masculinity, it is rather about being "pretend macho" in simplified terms and is not the same as being masculine.
It also has very little to do with feminism and much more to do with how poorly a lot of men deal with their own emotions and empathy towards others.
There's plenty of different factors like homophobia, excessive dominant behaviour, intimidation/violence and alpha/beta thinking etc but the combination of several is usually specific for men hence toxic masculinity.
Basically playing on some old idea that a man is supposed to be stronger, tougher and better than everyone around them whilst also conforming to a role where only classically masculine traits/interests/accessories are accepted.
Classic examples like the scrawny or weak boy in school getting bullied, seen as a victim because not 'masculine enough' etc comes to mind.
IMHO it's much more of a gradient than it is a binary thing, you can be toxic in some ways and 'healthy' in others.
I'm also not saying toxic women don't exist, they just behave differently when looking at a larger scale.

From a personal perspective, I most likely come across as a very masculine person "IRL" yet have met plenty of people who have behaviour that could be described as "toxic masculinity", both towards me and others.
Furthermore this is something that's become excessively clear to me when talking to women my age about their previous experiences, there is A LOT of men out there that really nail the criteria for toxic masculinity.
However, as with many other "stamps", great care should be taken when throwing words like that around because misuse will just make continued discussions more difficult.
A lot like the term feminist has a lot of different meanings these days, everything from 'equal rights no matter gender' to 'women before men', which I guess would rather be toxic feminimity.

Wether we call it masculine insecurity or toxic masculinity, I think all men and society as a whole would benefit greatly if the discussion leaned more towards how we can deal with our emotions, thoughts and behaviours in more thoughtful and constructive ways.

Trying to get back to the original post .. I'm no father but putting a kid into 'macho activites' instead of trying to understand what's going on seems like putting a bandaid on a flesh wound. Judging from the kids breakdowns there must be something else going on and I don't see how the "men don't cry" attitude is going to do anything else than at best create a young man who is completely out of touch with his emotions.

From my own upbringing I can definitely say attitudes like that has caused me a lot of harm and took me a long time to get out of.
It was not until I started working and met "the right people" that I could start growing as a person again, finding other outlets like design, engineering, non-group activities etc.

Regardless, there's A LOT going on in your head and body as you grow up. I think a lot of patience and understanding goes a long way to make sure the kid becomes a healthy adult, capable of dealing with his own problems in time.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

TLDR.

Do you think anyone using that term regularly had looked up and study the clinical definition?

Remembers it and applied it correctly?

I don’t, most people who feel the need to label everyone are just head cases.

 

[higgite]

TLDR.

Do you think anyone using that term regularly had looked up and study the clinical definition?

Remembers it and applied it correctly?

I don’t, most people who feel the need to label everyone are just head cases.

I read it. Short version: “Toxic masculinity” is the new buzz phrase for bullying by non-birthing humans.

Tom