Need info on a good oxy/acteylene set up for brazing

[toprecyler]

Please do not take the following the wrong way but, I am a bit sinsitive to the terminologies used, they really do have meaning in the real world.

I get your point; but, you continue to use 200CF which means very little, If you want 200SCF of gas the actual size of the cylinder will vary based upon the cylinder pressure and gas.

Please note, in the industrial gas world which includes welding cylinders that:
ACF sometimes refered to as water volume stands for "Actual Cubic Foot" which is the physical internal volume of the vessel/tube/cylinder/bottle.
SCF is the uncompressed volume of a compressible fluid such as Oxygen and stands for "Standard Cubic Foot"; therefore, 200 SCF will compress into a small ACF but it is still 200 SCF.

A large cylinder is a 3AA-2400 which is 9" OD x 55" tall and it has a water volume of 1.7ACF +/-, with Oxygen that cylinder at 2400 PSI will hold 174.92 SCF per ACF or a total of 297.36 SCF. As a comparison the same cylinder same pressure full of Nitrogen is 159.48 SCF per ACF or 271.12 SCF total cylinder volume. Now, if you can find a cylinder of this ACF in a 3500 PSI full of Nitrogen is 220.263 SCF per foot or 374.45 SCF total cylinder volume.

With all of that said, the 3AA-2400 cylinder is a fairly large welding bottle and expensive for what a hobbiest needs, the 3AA-2265 is the bottle(s) that I have and I think you are talking about, this bottles full pressure is 2265 PSI at 1.3 ACF +/-, with Oxygen that cylinder will hold 163.99. SCF per ACF or a total volume of 213.2 SCF and is common and inexpensive relativly speaking.

Just as a side note for those who actually read all of this, Compressors use CFM "Cubic Feet Per Minute" to tell us how much SCF of volume they move, not a true volume of storage, the compressor tanks or recievers are typically rated in gallons which is uncompressed volume (water volume) which means a 15 gallon reciever is actually 2 ACF and at 120 PSI holds 7.928 SCF per ACF or 15.86 ACF total; so, A little more than 1 SCF per gallon....

I’ve been around welding / cutting gases for over 40 years. Several different welding stores, buyouts, mergers, and so forth in my area. Now the nearest true welding store where I can get gases filled is 4 towns over about 40 miles away.

With that said, each time someone new bought out existing business, it seemed the names of the tanks I once knew, changed. Contents usually the same, but maybe a bit different volume of gas. Sometimes, based on how high of pressure they actually fill the tanks to.

I remember most of the time when I was a kid working with my dad, oxygen tanks were always at least filled to 2500 psi. Nowadays, when I get a new tank, it is usually only 2200 psi. Why? Safety reasons? Or just companies way to raise profit margins? Fill the bottles a bit less, and keep price the same?

Oxygen tanks have several different names for the sizes they are. I think a lot of it has to do with how it was known in that area years ago, and terminology will be different in different parts of the world.

Anyone want a pop? Or a coke?

Now, as far as welding, brazing, soldering, terminology, I think of brazing and soldering as like holding two parts together with hot glue. The parts can be dissimilar metals. You melt the welding rod to join the parts. The rod does not mix with the base metals.

Soldering is usually with a lower temperature filler. Brazing with higher temp filler metal.

Welding is joining two base metals by melting, with or without a similar filler wire.

I was taught in school gas welding with Oxy-acetylene. I was told that you cannot gas weld with oxy-propane because you cannot achieve a neutral flame with it. Has to do with more chemistry that’s over my pay grade. If you actually want to gas weld steel, you will need oxy-acetylene set up.

I’m not sure about gas welding alum, or other non ferrous metals.

But since soldering and brazing is only melting one metal, the filler metal, you can use oxy-propane, or propane only if that is capable of getting your base metal hot enough to melt the filler material you choose to use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[verbotenwhisky]

I’ve been around welding / cutting gases for over 40 years. Several different welding stores, buyouts, mergers, and so forth in my area. Now the nearest true welding store where I can get gases filled is 4 towns over about 40 miles away.

With that said, each time someone new bought out existing business, it seemed the names of the tanks I once knew, changed. Contents usually the same, but maybe a bit different volume of gas. Sometimes, based on how high of pressure they actually fill the tanks to.

I remember most of the time when I was a kid working with my dad, oxygen tanks were always at least filled to 2500 psi. Nowadays, when I get a new tank, it is usually only 2200 psi. Why? Safety reasons? Or just companies way to raise profit margins? Fill the bottles a bit less, and keep price the same?

Oxygen tanks have several different names for the sizes they are. I think a lot of it has to do with how it was known in that area years ago, and terminology will be different in different parts of the world.

Anyone want a pop? Or a coke?

Now, as far as welding, brazing, soldering, terminology, I think of brazing and soldering as like holding two parts together with hot glue. The parts can be dissimilar metals. You melt the welding rod to join the parts. The rod does not mix with the base metals.

Soldering is usually with a lower temperature filler. Brazing with higher temp filler metal.

Welding is joining two base metals by melting, with or without a similar filler wire.

I was taught in school gas welding with Oxy-acetylene. I was told that you cannot gas weld with oxy-propane because you cannot achieve a neutral flame with it. Has to do with more chemistry that’s over my pay grade. If you actually want to gas weld steel, you will need oxy-acetylene set up.

I’m not sure about gas welding alum, or other non ferrous metals.

But since soldering and brazing is only melting one metal, the filler metal, you can use oxy-propane, or propane only if that is capable of getting your base metal hot enough to melt the filler material you choose to use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with most of what you have said, 98%; however, we hold very different thoughts on oxy-propane, welding with oxy-propane is possible, I have done it.

I have owned the torch in my garage since 1983, close to 40 years and to be honest I occasionally silver solder with it but if I intend to weld I pull out the old Lincoln 220 or Mig which ever is most suited for what I am doing. All of this aside, I have spent decades designing/engineering compressed gas and cryogenic gas systems in the industrial gas industries and I am very knowledgeable in the rules and laws governing exactly what we are discussing. The welding supply business is a small part of the industrial gas business.

The connections for the welding bottles are CGA-540 for oxygen, CGA-580 for inert gasses and CGA-350 for fuel gases, the CGA is the point I am drawing attention to, CGA stands for Compressed Gas Association, the group that sets the rules and regulations for this industry; and if you'll look up their literature you'll have the answers to all your question concerning welding cylinders.

be safe out there...

 

[matthewsx]

I have a pretty good sized cylinder of ultra pure nitrogen (about 5’ tall) that I got free. Like my other cylinders it’s stored outside the shop mostly.

Think I may be able to use it for welding but haven’t tried yet. MIG, TIG?

Maybe for my heat treat oven when I get it set up?

John

 

[helmbelly]

So I got the torch with Type A small fittings and have adapted it to Type B hose. Will I save on gas? Does this restrict/reduce the gas output?

 

[helmbelly]

stored outside the shop mostly.

Do a lot of y'all do this? Keep them outside? When I got home with my new filled tanks I just left them outside kinda on instinct I guess. I have a steel table outside, figured I'd fire them up outside while I'm figuring it all out. But from turning off the gas when done, and not storing the Acetylene on it's side - otherwise safe for inside use I guess. I'm firing up today if mashing 5 lbs of potatoes doesn't take too long. Happy Bird Day shop creatures!

 

[matthewsx]

For me it’s more a matter of space. My dad had cylinders in the garage and he was a chemical engineer so I guess the risk isn’t that great.

John

 

[DavidR8]

I actually sold my torch setup out fear of fire and the insurance implications. Specifically that I would not be covered because my insurance does not allow welding. So if there was a fire and my neighbour's house was affected my insurance would not cover the damages.

 

[Dabbler]

I actually sold my torch setup out fear of fire and the insurance implications. Specifically that I would not be covered because my insurance does not allow welding. So if there was a fire and my neighbour's house was affected my insurance would not cover the damages.

Your caution is well placed. Many insurance companies (and their adjusters) will try to ask adversarial questions to invalidate coverage any possible reason.

However a very careful reading of the fine print of your home ownership policy tells a different story. For the sake of prudence, My oxyset is on a wheeled welding cart in my garden shed, under lock and key. One could make the argument that using it indoors might trigger the nonsense. But since that isn't in the written contract, well you know.

I have tussled with auto insurance companies 3 times, and house insurance people once, in the past. So far I have come out with a satisfactory outcome every time. My most recent one, I moved my insurance to another company and fired my broker, because of nonsense about metalworking, so I chose a company with full disclosure, that was only a small up-charge. This my first neutral result in 45 years.

 

[DavidR8]

Your caution is well placed. Many insurance companies (and their adjusters) will try to ask adversarial questions to invalidate coverage any possible reason.

However a very careful reading of the fine print of your home ownership policy tells a different story. For the sake of prudence, My oxyset is on a wheeled welding cart in my garden shed, under lock and key. One could make the argument that using it indoors might trigger the nonsense. But since that isn't in the written contract, well you know.

I have tussled with auto insurance companies 3 times, and house insurance people once, in the past. So far I have come out with a satisfactory outcome every time. My most recent one, I moved my insurance to another company and fired my broker, because of nonsense about metalworking, so I chose a company with full disclosure, that was only a small up-charge. This my first neutral result in 45 years.

When we build my new shop I will likely investigate a new company as I'm not comfortable with flying under the radar.
<hijackoff/>

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Let me throw my $.02 in here about ownership of bottles. Many years ago (about 40) I bought my my oxy/acetylene bottles out right from the supply house. I believe they were in the 225 cf range somewhere. When I brought them to be filled the supply house just swapped them out as if they were leased. I felt a little uncomfortable with that because I when I got my bottles they were brand new but after the first fillup I obviously got older bottles and my shiny new ones went into the line up for the next guy. A relocation forced me to sell the tanks and when I went to buy tanks at my new loc all but the smaller bottles were lease only. As all the bottles were swapped when refilled the only difference between owning or leasing seemed to involve just the method of payment.

I done even understand how the lease thing works.

Monthly payment and the gas is free?

Other than that its merely a terminology issue, and no way am I paying a monthly fee for something I use a couple times a year.