Metric threads on an Imperial lathe

GREAT INFO!! btw...This is a SBL 14.5" machine.

1.) I like Mr.Whoopee idea of a 63t running against a 80t. That would get VERY close. See my attachment...so swapping out the 64t in the photo to a 63t...is this the gear you are talking about...Is this gear available of is it something I need to fabricate?

2.) Figured this one out...

3.) IF I went to a 63t then how do you make sense of the TPI/in per rev settings? Some math conversions I suspect...SEE PHOTO

4.) This thing also has a 6tpi leadscrew. Typical or not?? PHOTO

I'm probably getting over my head but I sure appreciate all the help!

SBL Tooth count.jpg


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Reading 'Screwcutting in the Lathe" by Martin Cleeve helped to de-mystify the topic for me. It's only arithmetic. Also, 3D printed plastic change gears have worked fine for me for threading operations on my Logan 10". You probably know somebody with a 3D printer. If not there's probably a 'hobbyist for hire' locally who will print what you need, if you can find the file online at Thingiverse or another site.
 
A 61/48 combo gear is .127083333. Also check out Halligan142's video on metric threading on a South Bend lathe.

 
THANKS everyone for your patience on this subject! And thanks for all the input!
 
Yes, some kind of compound gear with a 127 tooth gear in it will allow you to cut perfect metric threads on an Imperial machine. T

the 100/127 is exact.
Historically, there was a time when it was not; there was a switch from 39.37 inch = 1 meter to one inch = 25.4 mm,
in 1930 (England) or 1933 (USA).

So, if you have an antique machine, the lead screw won't likely be exact to the modern standard... but it's
still as good as "Imperial" standards ever were. More on the issue here...
 
You've got great advice as of yet. I'd like to add a couple of things. First, it's gears, ratios, and tolerances, which means there's a thousand ways to skin this cat. Study what you can, figure out what's going to do EVERYTHING you want to do, on YOUR lathe. And go with one system. That won't hurt your brain so much.

I just got my lathe set up for this. I went with 127, because odds are I'll never need threads accurate enough to run together for six continuous inches, but I didn't want to do it twice. For "normal" length threads, the "cheats" are plenty good enough. But 127 is the smallest number that will make a true, exact conversion. That's a big gear. It does fit inside my change gear cover, so that wasn't in issue for me. Your case might be different.

Jim F gave this to you first, but "127 transposing gear" and your lathe, or "metric transposing gear" and your lathe is your best jumping off point to search the internet and see what might already available in kit form. One and done, and nothing to add later. And often, if they're specific to your machine, they'll include a paper "cheat sheet" which will tell you what to do with the rest of the gears and tumblers on the lathe. You can sort these ratios out too, and it's good to be able to do so, but the cheat sheet is nice...

Plastic gears work fine for threading operations. Nothing to be scared of, but not something you want to crash into the chuck, or carriage stop with. But they're good. And economical.

Once you get this in place... don't let your guard down. Nothing (absolutely nothing) related to the lead screw works normally, until you get the normal gears back in. It'll move of course, (and you can use it), but NOTHING but the metric threads will be correct.
 
One thing I didn't see mentioned (maybe I missed it) was that your threading dial won't work since it's designed for cutting imperial threads. You will either need to never disengage the half nuts or use one of the other workarounds to be found on the internet. Joe Pi has a video on the subject.

Dis-engaging the half nuts, running the carriage back and re-engaging the half nuts will result in cuts that are not synchronized, screwing up your threads.

You probably know that but it's worth mentioning. It's what screwed up my first attempt(s) cut cut metric threads on my imperial machine.
 
One thing I didn't see mentioned (maybe I missed it) was that your threading dial won't work since it's designed for cutting imperial threads. You will either need to never disengage the half nuts or use one of the other workarounds to be found on the internet. Joe Pi has a video on the subject.

Dis-engaging the half nuts, running the carriage back and re-engaging the half nuts will result in cuts that are not synchronized, screwing up your threads.

You probably know that but it's worth mentioning. It's what screwed up my first attempt(s) cut cut metric threads on my imperial machine.
This is important to know. I leave my half nut engaged and run the carriage back and forth, after disengaging the tool. I turn the power off when hitting the thread gutter. Then extract the tool, reverse the lathe to go back to the start and stop the spindle. Then set the tool depth and turn on the spindle forward.

There should be a way to resynchronize the spindle and carriage thread dial. It's going to be some modulo 127 or 100 ratio, but I haven't figured it out yet. I have an ELS and I'd like to do this. Have an encoder on the spindle and I can count steps for the lead screw. One of my round tuits that I'd like to figure out this year. I need to just work out the math - hopefully it will become obvious once I plot some stuff.
 
Keep in mind that when adding a 127T gear, you can determine the DP for the existing gears and look for a 127T in a smaller pitch ( higher number ) so the 127 is similar in size to the 80T on the machine. My Monarch has 12DP gears so adding a 16DP 127 and coupling it directly to the 75 allows me to only change one gear to three or four sizes, adjust the banjo, and get most of the metric pitches needed. Pictures are on my Monarch 60 thread.

Dave
 
There should be a way to resynchronize the spindle and carriage thread dial. It's going to be some modulo 127 or 100 ratio, but I haven't figured it out yet.

It's going to be a multiple of 127 lead screw rotations.

I have an ELS and I'd like to do this. Have an encoder on the spindle and I can count steps for the lead screw. One of my round tuits that I'd like to figure out this year. I need to just work out the math - hopefully it will become obvious once I plot some stuff.

The difficult part of this is going to be that when you run the carriage back, it depends on how far you run it back. As you wind the carriage back, every time the 1 comes around (or pick your number), the carriage has moved (usually) four inches, and each is a different "instance" of where the thread dial would have lined up. So you'd need a counter on that too, so the ELS would know "WHICH" number one you were on when you drop the half nuts again, so that the software could calculate from there where to go.




As it applies to the original post- That's the key, WHICH number one are you on? If you start metric threading with the thread dial engaged, pick a number that's dead nutz (or exactly repeatable) and leave it there. If you don't disengage the half nuts, the dial will NEVER move a bit.
If you're threading to a shoulder that's challenging to time the stopping of the lathe, you CAN release the half nuts, but here's the caviat- You MUST re-engage them on the SAME NUMBER, and the SAME INSTANCE of the same number. For example, if you release the half nuts, stop the lathe, and the dial advances a quarter turn, you've got to back out of the cut, reverse the lathe, and drop the half nuts on the EXACT same INSTANCE of the exact same mark you had it on before. (It's usually a small amount, quite easy to back it up by hand). If the dial goes all the way around and you drop in, it won't work. In theory, you could let it go around ten times or twenty times, and you could just back it up ten or twenty turns and re-engage. In practice, you wanna get it pretty close so you can keep track. Once you loose that rotation, you have literally thousands of "instances" of the same number 1 on the dial, and it's not really feasible to figure out which one. (I havn't worked it out, it might be as low as 127 times the lead screw pitch, but I suspect it's a bunch more than that as I think you might have to multiply by the gear ratio between the gear chuck and the lead screw as well. I don't care enough to sort that out, as the best case scenario is implausible to work with anyhow). So if you loose your alignment, you're essentially picking up a thread as if you were repairing an existing one, since you will never (with any practicality) find the correct place to re-engage the half nuts.. And I'm not trying to scare you, picking up an existing thread absolutely be done provided you've got the compound installed and are feeding in at 30 degrees, otherwise you'd have to reinstall it at that point, but it's not the end of the world, so long as you know that it got out of time and don't send a wild cut down your shiny new threads. But at that point where you've picked up the threads, you've lost all of your calculated cuts, and you're literally cutting the thread blindly until it fits. You won't be turning out a properly finished thread without a suitable mating thread to test with. PITA, but very doable. So yeah, if there's a mistake, and you collect your thoughts before something goes way wrong, there is a recovery option. Not quick or easy but you can recover.
 
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