Another SB9a rotary wiring question

I'm hoping to learn more about electricity as my machining goes. They seem to go hand in hand. Just not something I use in my career or prior hobbies.

Interestingly, when the new pulley showed up and I had this thing all wired per the prior owners instructions, I was so excited to test it. I did not really trust the 2 prong plug (ignorance breeds fear?) so I made it a brief test with aluminum, brass and steel rods 3/4 or less. Just to see how the auto feeds and gear box worked. I was not comfortable taking the belt out of the lowest speeds. It was more than I needed for those materials, and left an awesome finish compared to the LMS 7x14. I also tried the back gear to better understand it.

Long story longer, I don't see myself reaching the full capacity of this lathe any time soon with my tinkering. So hopefully I can squeeze a little time out of the current set up before dropping more on a different motor.

Thanks again.
 
Ok, been eating at me for safety reasons. I did a bunch of reading in the airports today. Re wired the motor to the "low voltage, no thermal protection" diagram on the first page. I then wired the 3 prong straight to the motor as pictured. Started right up with a chirp of the belt and a click of the centrifugal switch. No sparks, no tripped breaker, no drama. Even turned the correct way!

20240624_195537.jpg

So I add the drive to the counter shaft w/o load, then with an empty chuck, again started right up, no drama. So I through a 3/4 piece of aluminum bar in it and gave a few light passes. No drama.

I go to call that a night, unplug from the garage outlet, and the cord is warm. That seems problematic?

I have a buddy coming this week to help who is much better with electrical. But my OCD and curiosity won't let this be, especially since the switch isnt hooked up.Could the cord be to small of gauge for this? I have attached a picture of the only markings I can find, but they do not seem helpful.

20240624_195554.jpg
 
There is normally a wire size in AWG stamped or printed on the side of the cable.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk
 
The cord is required to be marked on the jacket, along it's length. You want 14 gauge at MINIMUM.

The next question is the outlet. It's "probably" wired for 20 amps. That means the max for any given length of time (not instantaneous) is at or about 16 amps.

A 14 gauge extension cord usually says on the label it's good for 15 amps. At that amperage, over any length of time, that extension cord will get "comfortably warm". Obviously it's uncomfortable when electrical things heat up, but I hope that makes sense... It should get "comfortably warm" and STAY THAT WAY. That is wrong, unacceptable, but pretty well accepted and UL listed, and should be corrected, but doesn't warrant panic immediately. (Vacuum cleaner cords usually heat up too, while in use FWIW.... Heat should be generated no faster than it dissipates at "comfortably warm". If it continues and heats more and more over time, you're on the way to a thermal runaway, where heat goes in faster than it goes out. Hours or days, doesn't matter. If it doesn't stabilize, it doesn't stabilize and that's NOT gonna be OK in any way.

The other issue is the corresponding issue inside of the walls, or however else the garage circuits are wired in place. If those wires are the same gauge as the extension cord (with SOME allowance for the fact that most extension cords don't meet the ohms per foot expectation that one might have if they assumed that the gauge of the wire was related to the size and copper content of the wire.,..... But that's another subject), with some allowance, the same thing is happening inside of the garage electrical system. So IF (-IF-) the extension cord is 14 gauge, it bears watching careful to be certain the extension cord "stabilizes" at a temperature. The wiring to a 120v outlet should oughtta be 12 gauge by all rights (Yellow Romex if you have access to peek), but depending on the age and the installer and some old exceptions, and lots of DIY and "discount electricians" doing rental stuff... I'd want to peek, because if it's white romex (14 gauge), the "in the wall" heating will be (theoretically) equal to the extension cord heating, with LESS opportunity for heat dissipation.

Personal opinion- Were that me-

A, make sure the cord is "OK", as "rated for" is gonna be barely adequate. But adequate. 14ga minimum.
B, make sure the wires to the outlet are indeed 12 gauge. They "should" be anyhow, but "big deal". Take the cover plate off (don't stick your fingers in), and IN THEORY the jacket should be visible right there where the romex enters the box.
C. Keep the "on time" to a minimum and work your way up, INCLUDING monitoring the cord AND unplugging the cord now and then to make sure the prongs themselves (the flat ones, not the ground) are not heating beyond what the cord it's self is.
D. When you have your buddy there, judge carefully as you go along, make sure he knows some stuff, and not just knows where to hook things..... Have your buddy look around and see if there is a place you can get ahold of 240 volts out there. That'd be ideal. Or if it might (or might not) be practicable to make up an extension cord to a 240 volt outlet elswhere in the house. PITA but it's workable.


The bottom line is that this is "probably" a workable situation you have there, but that motor is a monster as far as a "regular" outlet is concerned.
Verifying the in wall wire gauge is a big deal. Monitoring the extension cord is a big deal. Both of those can be "trusted" with enough experience. Just like your vacuum cleaner cord.
That motor is quite capable of taking more than the circuit can deliver. The onus will always be on you to not let it do that. But "heavy cuts" type of issues are gonna be a tripped breaker issue. No worries there.

If it comes to this (It may well not come to this- Your situation may well end up being workable), but if it comes to this, that lathe came with a quarter horse motor. The cadillac motor was a half horse. I have that. half a horse will twist that lathe up into ways it should not bend to if you try hard enough. Sure, more is "nice", you don't have to think as much about your cuts and all, but half a horse WILL do what the lathe can do if it comes to it. If you had to knock that motor back to one or 3/4 horse... You'd still have a hot rodded lathe and the outlets would be happier. If you do anything more than upgrade the extension cord, check prices- It'd not be prudent to have more into a "band-aid" fix for a lack of power to the garage than it would to have simply tossed on a more appropriate motor for 120v residential electrical systems. Not saying either one will be the answer, just know them both. This stuff can add up FAST either way, and if you sort it out ahead of time, the direction a soluton takes you can often be surprising and unintuitive.

But to start, just go back to my bullet list there. A and B for sure, don't even need your buddy for that. From there just play it smart, there's an answer somewhere that "might" take some doing, but you'll get this going.
 
The cord is required to be marked on the jacket, along it's length. You want 14 gauge at MINIMUM.

The next question is the outlet. It's "probably" wired for 20 amps. That means the max for any given length of time (not instantaneous) is at or about 16 amps.

A 14 gauge extension cord usually says on the label it's good for 15 amps. At that amperage, over any length of time, that extension cord will get "comfortably warm". Obviously it's uncomfortable when electrical things heat up, but I hope that makes sense... It should get "comfortably warm" and STAY THAT WAY. That is wrong, unacceptable, but pretty well accepted and UL listed, and should be corrected, but doesn't warrant panic immediately. (Vacuum cleaner cords usually heat up too, while in use FWIW.... Heat should be generated no faster than it dissipates at "comfortably warm". If it continues and heats more and more over time, you're on the way to a thermal runaway, where heat goes in faster than it goes out. Hours or days, doesn't matter. If it doesn't stabilize, it doesn't stabilize and that's NOT gonna be OK in any way.

The other issue is the corresponding issue inside of the walls, or however else the garage circuits are wired in place. If those wires are the same gauge as the extension cord (with SOME allowance for the fact that most extension cords don't meet the ohms per foot expectation that one might have if they assumed that the gauge of the wire was related to the size and copper content of the wire.,..... But that's another subject), with some allowance, the same thing is happening inside of the garage electrical system. So IF (-IF-) the extension cord is 14 gauge, it bears watching careful to be certain the extension cord "stabilizes" at a temperature. The wiring to a 120v outlet should oughtta be 12 gauge by all rights (Yellow Romex if you have access to peek), but depending on the age and the installer and some old exceptions, and lots of DIY and "discount electricians" doing rental stuff... I'd want to peek, because if it's white romex (14 gauge), the "in the wall" heating will be (theoretically) equal to the extension cord heating, with LESS opportunity for heat dissipation.

Personal opinion- Were that me-

A, make sure the cord is "OK", as "rated for" is gonna be barely adequate. But adequate. 14ga minimum.
B, make sure the wires to the outlet are indeed 12 gauge. They "should" be anyhow, but "big deal". Take the cover plate off (don't stick your fingers in), and IN THEORY the jacket should be visible right there where the romex enters the box.
C. Keep the "on time" to a minimum and work your way up, INCLUDING monitoring the cord AND unplugging the cord now and then to make sure the prongs themselves (the flat ones, not the ground) are not heating beyond what the cord it's self is.
D. When you have your buddy there, judge carefully as you go along, make sure he knows some stuff, and not just knows where to hook things..... Have your buddy look around and see if there is a place you can get ahold of 240 volts out there. That'd be ideal. Or if it might (or might not) be practicable to make up an extension cord to a 240 volt outlet elswhere in the house. PITA but it's workable.


The bottom line is that this is "probably" a workable situation you have there, but that motor is a monster as far as a "regular" outlet is concerned.
Verifying the in wall wire gauge is a big deal. Monitoring the extension cord is a big deal. Both of those can be "trusted" with enough experience. Just like your vacuum cleaner cord.
That motor is quite capable of taking more than the circuit can deliver. The onus will always be on you to not let it do that. But "heavy cuts" type of issues are gonna be a tripped breaker issue. No worries there.

If it comes to this (It may well not come to this- Your situation may well end up being workable), but if it comes to this, that lathe came with a quarter horse motor. The cadillac motor was a half horse. I have that. half a horse will twist that lathe up into ways it should not bend to if you try hard enough. Sure, more is "nice", you don't have to think as much about your cuts and all, but half a horse WILL do what the lathe can do if it comes to it. If you had to knock that motor back to one or 3/4 horse... You'd still have a hot rodded lathe and the outlets would be happier. If you do anything more than upgrade the extension cord, check prices- It'd not be prudent to have more into a "band-aid" fix for a lack of power to the garage than it would to have simply tossed on a more appropriate motor for 120v residential electrical systems. Not saying either one will be the answer, just know them both. This stuff can add up FAST either way, and if you sort it out ahead of time, the direction a soluton takes you can often be surprising and unintuitive.

But to start, just go back to my bullet list there. A and B for sure, don't even need your buddy for that. From there just play it smart, there's an answer somewhere that "might" take some doing, but you'll get this going.


This is amazing and so helpful! Much appreciated. I have a basic concept of electricity as in I feel comfortable installing lights, switches, and outlets. But the nitty gritty of the relationship between amps, volts, etc are much beyond me, as is the use if a meter. My buddy admitted up front that hes not familiar with this setup, but he is very comfortable with a meter and does lots of wiring with HAM radio and home electronics.

I looked on the cord and it is much too small. I noticed my air compressor has a 1.5 hp motor on it and the cord is MUCH thicker. I saw the AWG rating on both, but it escapes me at the moment.

I'll take a look at the wiring in the outlet, great idea.

The cord heat makes since and I understand what you ate saying. I have recognized the vaccum example, but didn't make the connection.

Again, thank you!
 
Most home outlets are fused/breakered for 15 amps. Some garages have one or two 20 amp outlets- depends on your house
Your breakers have a time delay to allow high surge appliances like motors to start up. Normal start up currents can be 5-6 times the normal running current. Also, you haven't really loaded down the motor yet- You are sure to trip a breaker at some point, taking a heavy cut on a piece of tough steel for example.
Like I mentioned, this motor is about 2X larger than you need and will draw an appreciable current. No surprise the cord gets warm
 
Most home outlets are fused/breakered for 15 amps. Some garages have one or two 20 amp outlets- depends on your house
Your breakers have a time delay to allow high surge appliances like motors to start up. Normal start up currents can be 5-6 times the normal running current. Also, you haven't really loaded down the motor yet- You are sure to trip a breaker at some point, taking a heavy cut on a piece of tough steel for example.
Like I mentioned, this motor is about 2X larger than you need and will draw an appreciable current. No surprise the cord gets warm
I am actively looking for a replacement. I agree and have been convinced that a 3/4 hp seems to be the way to go. Trying to find an affordable 110 TEFC. This project has been full of expensive surprises.

What to do with the 1.5hp later? Hmmm
 
You could sell the 1.5 on Craigslist or FB marketplace- people are always needing motors
If you come across a motor for sale, be sure to measure the shaft diameter. Test it too at the seller's location if possible
Tip: make up a test cord with alligator clips and bring it with you
 
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Called the local motor repair shop, nothing in inventory at the moment. Some small HF 1/3 motors local on market place. Grainger has a wide variety of motors.

I feel like given my lack of electrical understanding, it would be better to pick a new motor?

Want to verify specs I'm looking for:

HP: 1/4- 3/4
Single phase capcitor start(?)
115v
Reversible
frame: 56
Spindle: 5/8 ( well mic to verify)

I'm assuming I need the capicator start because of the avaliable power?

Thermal protection?

Lots of "farm duty" motors pop up on Google, but not really finding what that means.
 
Most all motors in that size range would be capacitor start. Not permanent split cap/capacitor run; that's a different species.
Thermal protection is pretty standard now with new motors. Some of the Dayton motors can be hard to wire for reverse-
Try to pick something other than Dayton. Ball bearing is preferable to sleeve bearing.
Marathon and Baldor make good ones, but they can be pricey. GE and Emerson are fine and often show up used for low cost
I'm not sure what farm duty means- perhaps farm animals come running when you plug it in? :cupcake:
 
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