Time for a modern TIG machine. What do you like?

[C-Bag]

We're talking about an $8,000 package here.

Big fail, homey ain’t droppin‘ $8k for welder, period.

 

[pontiac428]

Homey ain't no clown!

I have a question for @G-ManBart. You've had your hands in quite a few Syncro 250DX machines, is it possible to retrofit the pulse and wave features into the vanilla version? I need to double check the power requirements for the syncro 350 LX (think that's the right alphabets), because that's also an option.

The 250DX has integrated water cooling (option), one knob per feature/no menus operation, and with the right options the pulse timer, freq control, and wave form parameters. It tops out around 200A, but the 100% duty cycle hits at 160A, which is really good. It is a 1/4" machine.

The problem is finding one. My best bet is local (greater Seattle), but I'm not afraid of freight- what I am afraid of is remote buying an expensive piece of kit from a classified listing without being able to see or test the machine. This is again getting into capital equipment, where I'm more likely to buy from a business than I am to buy from an individual. I anticipate shady practice from certain businesses, so that's one more layer of vetting before parting with my fat roll of George Washingtons. I could pick up a 250DX vanilla pretty easily, they are common, so if I can find a way to add the optional boards, that might be best.

 

[General Zod]

Our resident fanboy @General Zod's posts on his gushing love for HTP welders has got my attention. I think he waits 'till game day, paints HTP on his chest, and chases cars up and down his street shouting HTP! HTP...! I figure that kind of spirit has to come from somewhere, maybe they are good welders... I'm eyeballing the Invertig 301 system. I've never run one, but they look good on paper. It's hard to put into perspective the difference between a 5 year old company and a 100 year old company if I have plans to own an use their product for the next 30 years. I need more reassurance before I jump.

LOL, no I don't have time for that. They are excellent welders with great customer service. Are they impervious to anything and everything? Nope, that is why they have their service dept/techs. HTP has been around since the 80's as they just recently celebrated their 40th Anniversary. Their welders (most of them anyways) are indeed made by Stel of Italy, who have been around since 1979, coincidentally the year I was born . So I wouldn't say they are a 5 yr old company (neither HTP nor Stel).

I still cannot determine what kind of company HTP is. The back of the manual is not even close to the level of detail Miller can provide, so that's what I'm hung up on. I'm not putting myself out thousands so that I can be stuck at square zero ten years from now, when I am retired and can't afford a throwaway/replacement over what might be a $5 burned transistor or something. See, now I'm talking myself back into Miller.

Simply put, HTP is a small welding company that imports machines to sell and service here in the USA. If you want to know about how long they service the machines that are discontinued, email them at customerservice@htpweld.com to get an answer, or better yet, just call them and a real person answers the phone; they do not have an automated phone answering system of any kind. Also, if you think Miller will sell you a $5 burnt transistor so you can fix a modern blue welder, best think again. The cheap inverter boards from their low-level machines are likely $1000+.

Don't just take my word for it. This is a quote from someone else who bought an Invertig 313 (the 1/3-phase capable version of the 301):

HTP INVERTIG 313 Air Cooled

I have welded as a home garage hobbyist on and off for 40+ years. I have ARC, Oxy Acetylene and MIG welded for many years. About 15 years ago I had a DC scratch start TIG machine that I did some steel projects with, but it was not a great machine. Last year I bought an AHP Alpha-TIG 201XD and started doing more TIG, especially aluminum. As a hobbyist, I enjoy TIG. The AHP has been a great machine for very little money. It has never had any functional issues, but I felt I was pushing the machine to weld 3/16” or thicker aluminum. I tried preheating, and even made up a mixing manifold for Argon/Helium mix. Both made a positive difference, and it was fun to see the effect of the helium mix. In the end, the machine still felt that it was at its limit… So, I took advantage of the sale at HTP and ordered an INVERTIG 313 air cooled.

I decided on the air cooled because I needed it to be somewhat portable. It arrived quick, and in perfect shape. I read the manual (twice) and gave it a try. I had hoped for more “punch”, and yes it has more power, a lot more. The first thing I figured out is the machine is way more machine than I expected. Right now the learning curve feels steep. The manual is not written as clearly as I would have liked. For example, on page 13 under Asymmetric Arc: “Does asymmetric arc do the same thing as balance? Sort of, but not really” I kid you not, this is a direct quote from the manual. It goes on to share “Typically you cannot find literature, videos, or any other online advice on setting asymmetric arc.” Again, this is a direct quote. I was hoping the manual would share some wisdom on symmetric arc, as it is adjustable on the INVERTIG, but other than saying it can “make a big difference”. The manual does not share how to really use or set it. I am confident I will figure it out, but for now I have it turned off. It is interesting that “off” means it is at “100”.

So far, I have used tig and pulsed tig. Welding with this machine is awesome. I wanted more punch, and it has it, and it really is impressive. Set at 200 amps, it starts the puddle in 3/16” 6061 very quickly, and just plain rocks. 200 amps on the INVERTIG is NOT the same as 200 amps on the AHP. The pedal is much more sensitive on the HTP. I am used to mashing the AHP pedal, then backing off in small increments as the work heats up. The HTP is so much more powerful – even with the amps turned down. I need to get used to the backing off on the pedal more.

I got the unit with a 25 foot CK worldwide 26 torch. It uses the same consumables as the 17 torch on my AHP, which is nice. The regulator and foot pedal seem to be solid and good quality, time will tell. The work clamp (ground) is a decent piece also.

So far my only negative for the machine itself has been the location of the on/off switch. Whoever came up with locating the switch on the back of the machine needs to be smacked up side the head. I get the concept of not having a “live wire” running from the power cord at the back all the way to a switch at the front of the machine… But… Somehow Miller figured it out, and my Millermatic 200 has not burned my garage down in the past 30+ years… And guess what, my Millermatic 255 has the on/off switch up front also…

The fan is an on demand fan, and can get a little loud, but not unreasonable. The control panel is well lit, and legible. The menus are reasonably intuitive. I like the idea of saving programs for materials / thickness’ I work on most frequently. I have not figured out how to label the programs yet.

This is a lot of machine for a home shop hobby welder guy. The first impressions are really good. Solid quality and way more than expected performance.

Geoff

The machines are no joke, as you can see. I would invite anyone (well almost anyone) to come over to my garage shop with their equivalent welding machines to torture test them side-by-side. Go full power right up until thermal shut down, let it cool, and as soon as it goes live again, go full power until thermal shut down, again, and again, and again, until one machine blows up. Anyone up for the challenge? Blue? Red? Yellow? Oh, and it ain't 70°F here to protect the machines. 110-112°F during the day. No monkey business here.

 

[pontiac428]

Ha ha, thanks for stopping by, Zod! The bait worked. I figured for as much as you've invested, you'd have some perspective on HTP. I didn't realize they've been around so long. And the live person at the end of the phone is golden.

Also, if you think Miller will sell you a $5 burnt transistor so you can fix a modern blue welder, best think again. The cheap inverter boards from their low-level machines are likely $1000+.

You're right, this is totally true. Board availability is what has had me spooked about the future of my plasma cutter, a commercial/industrial unit I've had for nigh 25 years. It's rock solid, but I feel like there's two straws left to draw in that machine, and the short straw is simply inevitable. I may sound like an asswipe worrying about a machine that's been reliable so long, but the cost of replacement for a 100% duty @ 1" machine is high, the boards are known to fail, and again I'm thinking about retiring early on a short budget. I'm only three years older than you, so your time is coming. I've earmarked a few convalescent homes already, in case I want to pull on some man diapers ahead of schedule, too!

I should have titled this thread something like "talk me out of Miller." But, hey, I started young. This was '81, I think. Dad still has the scrap with my first MIG bead.


I'm usually not indecisive. I usually know exactly what I want and work towards it. I know I've been waffling, but it's a devil-you-know vs. devil-you-don't-know situation, and I want whatever I decide to be final.

This has been a helpful thread for me. I'm going to ponder a little more, then load my cart, click, and get off the pot. But I would like to expand the thread for plasma. Right now, I've got a lathe to unload, but I'll present the info later. Thanks!

 

[Aaron_W]

I'm usually not indecisive. I usually know exactly what I want and work towards it. I know I've been waffling, but it's a devil-you-know vs. devil-you-don't-know situation, and I want whatever I decide to be final.

I would not call what you are doing being indecisive. I wonder sometimes when people can just drop $5-10,000 on a piece of equipment without a lot of internal debate and research. Obviously that kind of money is not as dear to some as it is to me.
It took me 2 years of pondering options and actual need to spend $1000 on my first lathe. About the same when I decided to buy a welder, and in that case I more than tripled my initial high budget to get what I hope will be at least a 20 year if not a rest of my lifetime machine.

You seem to be pretty solid in what you want and from my perspective are just doing your due diligence to ensure you will be happy with your sizable investment.

 

[C-Bag]

Ha ha, thanks for stopping by, Zod! The bait worked. I figured for as much as you've invested, you'd have some perspective on HTP. I didn't realize they've been around so long. And the live person at the end of the phone is golden.



You're right, this is totally true. Board availability is what has had me spooked about the future of my plasma cutter, a commercial/industrial unit I've had for nigh 25 years. It's rock solid, but I feel like there's two straws left to draw in that machine, and the short straw is simply inevitable. I may sound like an asswipe worrying about a machine that's been reliable so long, but the cost of replacement for a 100% duty @ 1" machine is high, the boards are known to fail, and again I'm thinking about retiring early on a short budget. I'm only three years older than you, so your time is coming. I've earmarked a few convalescent homes already, in case I want to pull on some man diapers ahead of schedule, too!

I should have titled this thread something like "talk me out of Miller." But, hey, I started young. This was '81, I think. Dad still has the scrap with my first MIG bead.
View attachment 413500

I'm usually not indecisive. I usually know exactly what I want and work towards it. I know I've been waffling, but it's a devil-you-know vs. devil-you-don't-know situation, and I want whatever I decide to be final.

This has been a helpful thread for me. I'm going to ponder a little more, then load my cart, click, and get off the pot. But I would like to expand the thread for plasma. Right now, I've got a lathe to unload, but I'll present the info later. Thanks!

This is the kind of thread I've come to really love about this site. Most of the opinions are through lots of experience, good and bad. The kind of stuff I can't really find in star reviews. I don't know how many times I've read : "just got it, haven't used it yet but it's great" 5 stars, whaaaa? I'm deep in the noob trying to even get a clue stage so this has been very good for me.

 

[G-ManBart]

The HTP cooler is made in China, but it's not constructed like the cheaper coolers that are out there. The fan and the pump are on the same motor shaft. There's also a flow sensor with an audible and visible alarm.

I forgot they were made differently. They still aren't made nearly as robust as the more expensive coolers....much smaller motor, small fan, and different pump setup. There have been a number of discussions on welding forums about them failing. They're much cheaper than the better coolers, but at $500 I can make a cooler with a Procon pump that will last for ages. One guy rebuilt his and adapted a bigger motor and Procon pump to his failed unit:

Water cooler failure??? bad day....

I was attempting to repair an AR500 target from my range.. everything was going great for the first 10 seconds.... then I smell rubber burning... lift the hood and the line is smoking... WTF. torch is very warm but not hot.... good thing I stopped quick. the only other thing was my...

weldingweb.com

 

[G-ManBart]

Homey ain't no clown!

I have a question for @G-ManBart. You've had your hands in quite a few Syncro 250DX machines, is it possible to retrofit the pulse and wave features into the vanilla version? I need to double check the power requirements for the syncro 350 LX (think that's the right alphabets), because that's also an option.

The 250DX has integrated water cooling (option), one knob per feature/no menus operation, and with the right options the pulse timer, freq control, and wave form parameters. It tops out around 200A, but the 100% duty cycle hits at 160A, which is really good. It is a 1/4" machine.

The problem is finding one. My best bet is local (greater Seattle), but I'm not afraid of freight- what I am afraid of is remote buying an expensive piece of kit from a classified listing without being able to see or test the machine. This is again getting into capital equipment, where I'm more likely to buy from a business than I am to buy from an individual. I anticipate shady practice from certain businesses, so that's one more layer of vetting before parting with my fat roll of George Washingtons. I could pick up a 250DX vanilla pretty easily, they are common, so if I can find a way to add the optional boards, that might be best.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but the 250DX has 310A max output. I don't recall what the 100% duty cycle is, but I have yet to run into an issue on up to 3/8" thick aluminum and much thicker on steel. I've set up practice coupons and run 3/8" aluminum piece after piece rotating them so they can cool and haven't hit the duty cycle...most of that was in the 250-275A range max.

You can add the pulser and sequencer kits to most 250DX machines, but there is an age cutoff....around a 2004 model or so when they switched to the angled face and newer look. The earlier 250DX was more square, all metal and didn't have the black plastic border on the face. The pulser and sequencer are plug and play boards so it's just pulling the covers and opening up holes in the face plate for the knob shafts...the wiring harnesses are already set up for them.

The pulser is pretty limited at .25 to 10hz. Compare that to my Everlast which is .1 to 500hz AC and .1 to 250hz DC. The sequencer seems to be more useful for automatic type processes, or for situations where you can't use a foot pedal or fingertip amperage control.

The one thing I would say is to stay away from the models with the cooler located inside the machine on the right side. They call those the "integrated cooler" and they only lasted around three years due to issues. I've had to replace a bad heat exchanger on one of those and it was a pain to get at, and expensive at around $400. They are known to leak and faults in them can shut off the machine entirely. They can be harder to spot, so look for the reservoir cap on the right side rather than the black part that flips out to hold cables. Or, if it's short and has a water-cooled torch setup, it's probably that style. The models before and after had a Coolmate 3.5 that was part of the running gear setup, so the cooler was part of the cart, and the welder bolted on top of that...much better setup, if bit taller.

I'll attach a picture of one with the integrated cooler I had...you can just see the cap on the upper right. Somewhat visible behind it is an older 250DX that was the square style I mentioned above.

You mentioned Lincoln and I'll add one comment about them. I like the way Lincoln welders work, but I don't like their current service/parts plan. They essentially don't carry parts for machines past around 10 years old. Miller still had parts I needed when I was fixing up machines that were 20-30 years old. They weren't always cheap, but they had them...stuff like a digital display, fan motor, contractor, etc. I'm guessing Miller will get worse about that over time, but for right now it's an advantage in their favor (in my opinion).

 

[MikeInOr]

The big difference is that the Primeweld machines are made in China, where the others are U.S. (Miller), Mexico (Lincoln) and Italy (HTP) for the most part. One thing that often gets missed is that the bigger companies have service centers, trained techs, tech services, and also warehouses with smart parts going back decades in many cases. That isn't going to be the case with a company like Primeweld. The reality is, if a Primweld breaks in five years you're just going to buy a replacement rather than be able to fix it. With the bigger names you have a better chance of being able to get parts and support over time, and that can't be cheap for the companies to maintain.

I've done a lot of reading about plasma cutters over the past year, and read every review and post I could find about the Primeweld machines. Much like the TIG, I have yet to see anything bad written about them. I'm planning to get the CUT60 as it will handle anything I'm likely to run into regularly...still have a big oxy/acetylene setup for anything really thick.

I went for the YesWelder Cut 65DS when it was $405 on sale about a half year ago. I am VERY pleased with this plasma cutter and can't believe I waited so long to finally buy a plasma cutter. The Primeweld CUT 60 has an integrated air pressure gauge where the YesWelder CUT 65DS has a pressure gauge that screws on to the back of the machine (Not as nice). I also picked up a YesWelder mask at the same time that I absolutely LOVE!

I don't think anyone will try to tell you that the Chinese stuff is in the same league as the US built machines... but many of us hobbyists can easily get by with a week or two of down time if our equipment poofs on us, something I wouldn't think that some one that depends on their equipment for their income would be willing to do.

The Prime Weld TIG225X is on my short list of machines to acquire. I used a friends Chinese TIG with a digital interface to do some practicing. The digital interface was miserable to set any particular parameter. All of those intimidating dials on the Prime Weld TIG225X look VERY attractive after using a cheap digital interface. But I have never used the Prime Weld TIG225X so I could be completely wrong.

 

[G-ManBart]

The Prime Weld TIG225X is on my short list of machines to acquire. I used a friends Chinese TIG with a digital interface to do some practicing. The digital interface was miserable to set any particular parameter. All of those intimidating dials on the Prime Weld TIG225X look VERY attractive after using a cheap digital interface. But I have never used the Prime Weld TIG225X so I could be completely wrong.

I'm sure there is a big difference in how easy the digital interface setups are to use when comparing models. The only inexpensive welder I've used with one is Harbor Freight's new ProTIG 205. It welded fine but I wasn't thrilled with the digital interface...it wasn't terrible, but wouldn't be how I would build one.

The digital interface on my Everlast is quite easy and only takes a few minutes to get used to. Essentially, you have one button that you push to go from feature to feature, and one dial to adjust each one as you go. You just push the button and the LED on the next feature is illuminated, so you know that's what you're adjusting with the dial...set amps, hit the button, set downslope, hit the button, set post-flow, etc. You can keep pushing the button to get back to the first parameter/feature, or if you don't hit anything for a few seconds it will go back there by itself and all the settings will be locked in.

There is some benefit to being able to really dial in your settings perfectly with a digital readout when you're dealing with critical applications, but the benefit for most of us is that you get a memory function where you can store settings you use frequently...a nice time saver. I used that when I made a small run of tools that had varying thicknesses and shapes....program 1 for one part, program 2 for another, etc.