Clausing 5418 Lathe

Rick,

1. It wouldn't explain the speed in Step 2 (or 3, whichever you actually meant) but what RPM are you running the motor at and are you using the original motor pulley or at least one with the exact same PD?

3 I think that's common.

4 Do you mean with the spindle not turning and with the pulley spinning on the spindle?

5 Assuming that I am right in assuming that both bearings are Timken, two possibilities are Cup loose in headstock or cone loose on spindle.

6 & 9 Did you apply the recommended grease to the gears? If the manual gives no clue as to mesh, use a strip of 20# bond between each pair of gears to set clearance.

7 & 8 No idea.
 
I've got some additinal investigation to do but just for clarity. The speed is disproportionally high in different pulley steps. Direct drive is high in step 2 and back gear is high in step 3. Not sure if the pulleys are OEM or not - I would say they are based on how close most of the speeds are to the published speeds. I need to see if I can get to the motor to check the speed (its a 1725 rpm nameplate). Another possibility is that the vfd frequency display is off a bit. I'm actually not too concerned with the high speeds because with the chart I created I can easily get to the desired speed. My concern was more related to if it was a symptom of something else.

Rick
 
Well I did some more investigating this morning. I wanted to tackle the vibration issue first. I was initially running the lathe with a 9" face plate I got off ebay so I decided to see how bad the vibration was with just the spindle. None - that was good news. Then I tried it with the 4 jaw chuck - again no vibration. That made me believe the face plate was out of balance so I put it back on and checked the TIR - a few thousandths. That didn't seem like enough to cause the vibration issue. I ran it again with the face plate up to 850 rpm and no vibration. I can only conclude that I initially had a problem with the face plate mounting. At this point I'm calling the vibration (#7) a non issue/solved.
My next concern is the spindle bearings. I was still measuring about.001" play at the inboard bearing with the face plate mounted and lifting up on the face plate. I changed over to just the back plate for the collet chuck for some noise testing and found that I couldn't feel any movement in the spindle. The manual indicates that correct preload is measured by giving the spindle a sharp spin manually - it should go one full turn. I am getting somewhere between 3/4 and 1 full turn. That tells me the bearings are not too loose - maybe too tight. Before I go too far in trying to adjust the spindle bearings I thought I'd link a video of the spindle in action to see if what I think is noisy is typical. Any opinions appreciated. In the video I am running the lathe at about 650 rpm's with the collet chuck back plate mounted. Note that the visual is pretty bad - I wanted to get the audio pick up as close as I could to the action
Thanks
Rick
 
So moving on with my list of issues - I have attached a short video of the back gear noise - I actually think this is not bad and represents the nature of the beast but am looking for other opinions.
To summarize the current status of the issues
1. High running speeds - not really concerned about this as along as it isn't a symptom of some other problem
3. spindle pulley movement around the plunger pin - I've been advised this is typical and not a problem
4. Noisy spindle when running - so far appears to be a non-issue
5. Spindle movement - no longer seems to be an issue
6. Noisy back gear - unless someone suggests otherwise this is being considered normal and a non-issue
7. Vibration - no longer exists - assuming it was related to initial mounting of the face plate and is now a non-issue
8. sliding gear movement - once the sliding gear is free of the detent ball it moved easily. I'm chalking this up to the ball detent doing its job and calling it as non-issue.
9. Gear train noisy - the addition of some lubrication to the gears seems to have quieted it down - non-issue
There is one remaining issue and 2 new ones
2. spindle belts tight. This one is confusing me. The belts that came with the machine had no markings and were cogged but they matched up to a 3L600 nicely except for the cogs - so that is what I got. The 60" overall length is just barely fitting. The confusing part is that Clausing indicates that the specified belt is 44" - and that's all the info they have. A 44" length belt is never going to fit - way too short. They only thing I can think of is that their 55 year old spec is based on some criteria that today's belt specs don't fit? I can get the belts from Clausing for an astronomical price (which I'm willing to spend) but I don't want to invest that kind of cash if there is something available elsewhere. I also don't want to change the belts unless I have to - that process is like a complete teardown. Any thoughts on 1960 era belt designations?
10. Cannot access the back gear shaft lubrication point. There is a port for oiling between the two gears on the back gear shaft but the spindle pulley and belts completely block access.
11. When running the gear train with the sliding gear out everything is fine; however when I push the sliding gear in and run the gear train I get a very loud squeal. I need to do some more work to try and figure out where that is coming from.
Any thoughts on these issues - especially the 3 remaining open issues will be appreciated.
Thanks
Rick
 
Rick,

2. The oldest Machinery's Handbook that I have with an FHP belt size table is from 1980. The 1943 edition does not list FHP belts. However, in trying to put together a list of the V-belts on various Atlas models I have accumulated most of them from owners telling me what was stamped into their as-found belts. In all probability, at least some of the belts were factory originals and most of the machine models were only made up through 1957. Some had bearing dates back to before WW-II. So I would say from this that the FHP belt codes have not changed. In the 1943 edition, I did come across a formula for calculating required belt length for the heavier industrial belts in the A through E series which I think would also be applicable to FHP belts.

L = outside belt length
D = diameter of larger pulley
d = diameter of smaller pulley
S = shaft and spindle center-to-center distance
/ = divided by
* = times
pi = 3.14159265...

L = ((D + d)/2 * pi) + 2* S

Drop the lower pulleys, measure S and calculate L. Buy belts half way between.

Maybe the 44" length belt is for the horizontal countershaft bench model. Whom did you talk to at Clausing?

10. You are looking at the lube chart for the 5300 Series or reading the instruction on Page 6, which applies to the 5300.. The 5400 chart at the end of the Parts Manual shows removing a plug on the right face of the headstock below the spindle. Atlas commercials are the same way. There is probably a ball-oiler hidden by the plug (chart isn't that specific).

11. Don't know.
 
You may have a good point regarding the horizontal drive belt length - I hadn't considered that. I talked with Adrianne at Clausing but all I gave her was the belt part number from the head stock section of the manual. As you know, that manual covers a lot of different cofigurations so that PN may be referring to the horizontal drive. I have sent a message to a tech service guy at clsusing that has helped me on a few other issues.

Regarding the back gear lubrication. I saw that note on the parts schematic as well.If memory serves - the head stock mounting holes for the back gear assembly hold the eccentric adjusters and I don't recall any oil ports there but I'm going to double check that.

Thanks
Rick
 
Rick,

Look on the right face of the headstock below the spindle (may have to remove the chuck) for the 18-83 "Button" (hole plug) and pry it out of the hole its stuck in. However they did it from there, that's where the oil for the back gear goes.

The parts lists show both the bench models (through several serial number increments) and the cabinet model (last). On the bench models, it actually gives the length and that the belt is a "B" section from the multiple v-belt series, so probably a B34 since the numbers are usually about one less than the belt length. On the cabinet model, the parts list just gives the Clausing number and that there are three of them. Where did you get the 44" dimension?
 
OK - were making some progress - at least in understanding.

As indicated above I initally checked with clausing customer service to determine availability of the 051-014 belt. They gave me that information and indicated it was a 44" belt. I moved on and took the belts I cut off the machine when I originally moved it to a belt shop. They sold me a 3L600 (60" belt). This morning I sent the question to Clausing Technical Support -Tom responded that the 051-014 belt is a 3L600 and that it is the correct belt for my lathe. While they seem a little too short for me - they do work so I think I am going to call this resolved - at least for now.

Regarding the back gear oiling. Below is a picture of the inboard back gear eccentric bushing. You can see there is a screw driver type slot for adjusting the back gear mesh and that is all. No oiling point. I also sent this question to Tom and he responded - "There was a revision done back in 1960 and the ball oiler was added and modifications done to the eccentric for the oil to go through it.". So that explains how the oiling was done pre-revision. I responded to Tom with the question regarding how oiling was intended to be done before the revision - unfortunately he doesn't know.

Inboard Back Gear Eccentric.JPG

Like many parts - this modified eccentric is not available. He did send me the print of the modified eccentric in the event I want to modify mine. Also the oiler is still available. I'm leaving this as an open issue until I decide if I'm going to modify the eccentric (risky because I don't think there is a replacement) or get an understanding of how oiling was done pre-revision or find a used eccentric that has the oiler. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks
Rick
 
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I don't see how you can get oil past the eccentric other than to go through it. If you take the belts off of the jackshaft and move them out of the way, can you see enough of the back gear to see whether or not the oil plug as shown on the bench model is present? If so, you may have to rig up an extension spout and do it that way until/unless you modify the eccentric.
 
wa5cab said:
I don't see how you can get oil past the eccentric other than to go through it.
Click to expand...

I agree - I was hoping there was a pathway through the headstock where the taper bearings are oiled but after thinking about it - it doesn't seem physically possible.

wa5cab said:
If you take the belts off of the jackshaft and move them out of the way, can you see enough of the back gear to see whether or not the oil plug as shown on the bench model is present
Click to expand...

I don't think so - but I am going to take another look at that. I n the meantime, Iordered the ball oiler and plug/cover yesterday from clausing - at some point I'll probably do the upgrade.

My remaining issue is more critical. During various stages of testing the drive train and power feeds I noticed a squeal - very loud and irritating. It only occurred with the sliding gear IN. That led me to investigate the mesh/fit of the gear train. It visually looked like the sliding gear may have been rubbing in the IN position so I added a felt washer to it. To get that gear train off I needed to remove the large gear on the lead screw. When I put the gear train back on I tested it without the lead screw gear and had no squeal - SUCCESS or so I thought. After re-installing the lead screw gear I got the squeal back. Now I was thinking the noise occurring with the sliding gear IN was simply a symptom related to speed - the whole gear train/lead screw turn a lot faster in the IN position. That led me to consider the gear box as the problem.
My testing process was to run the lathe in all gear box/sliding gear configurations possible. I numbered the gear box selector lever positions 1-9 (left to right) and started the process of running the lathe with the tumbler in the left, center, right positions with the sliding gear in the OUT and then IN position. I repeated this for every selection lever position. Initially I got squealing at the 9 and 7 positions sliding gear IN. All other data point didn't have squealing. I went back to the higher positions (7, 8and 9) and repeated the test - this time no squealing.
While I would like to claim success and walk away - I think I have a problem just waiting to occur again. The noise (squealing) doesn't really sound like interference. I have never heard a bearing squeal but I starting to believe that is the problem - one of the 5 gear box bearings is turning - either on it's shaft or in the gear box seat.
With minimal effort I was able to get the bearing covers off and discovered two potential problems. The first was a very loose bearing on the inboard side of the primary input shaft. It is VERY loose both on the inner and outer race. I'm thinking some bearing retainer on the inner race. The outer race has washers that retain the bearing but I'm wondering if I should depend on them to keep the bearing from spinning in the bearing seat or if some bearing retainer would be a good idea there as well?
The second problem was with the output shaft that connects to the lead screw via a tension pin. When I got the lathe the hole for the pin was pretty mangled and there was a bent over nail holding it together. In all my wisdom I moved the hole for the tension pin on the output shaft 1/8" towards the gear box. It was/is a perfect fit - so perfect that, when pinned, the lead screw is tight against the inner race of the bearing. I can see some minor damage to the seal as well. That fit can't be good - it seems it wouldn't take much to cause a problem. I can also see some very fine metal shavings on the end of the lead screw and on the chip tray. My thought is to put the lead screw in the SB and face an 1/8" off of the gear box end to give it some clearance. Any thoughts on potential problems with this solution.
Thanks
Rick
 
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