What would you get?

There is no home associated with shop. Just one 100 amp panel.
So, you could replace one or more of the 120v breakers with double breakers and install a 240v breaker for your mill.

Honestly, it sounds like most of your uses are transient rather than constant. Unless you’re using multiple big devices at once you should be fine.

You could also install a sub panel off that one for machine shop use with maybe a 30 or 40 amp breaker.

Lots of ways to skin this cat.

Awesome shop, keep the pictures coming.

John
 
Hi,

If you have an option, always get the Taiwan rather than the Chinese machine from PM. I have both a PM940M VS CNC Chinese Mill and a Taiwan PM1440GT Lathe and the Taiwan product is far superior. It is largely about the initial design, but even more importantly the manufacturing QC. Bigger is not always better.

From your photos it appears that you have 100Amp 220V service for the shed, but it would help to know the wire gauge and the insulation type to know what the feed wire capacity is. They appear to be Aluminum wires that "feed" into the 4 slot 100 Amp Mains breaker. If the wires are oversized for this breaker and the one back at the house then you could conceptually just increase the breaker capacity as these limit the total current available. You should check the breaker back out the house to see if it is also rated at 100Amp. The wires maybe able to carry more than 100Amps. TBD. It is not possible to see the writing on the wires in the photo. So there are two of these large wires providing the incoming power to the over sized 100 Amp mains breaker located across the top of the box. There is a third large wire that connect to the Ground/Neutral of the box and I cannot say for sure, but it appears that there it a ground rod connected to the ground at the box. Which is as it should be. Anyway, you have 220V arriving at the shed and it appears to be wired up correctly. If the "feed" wires are oversized than you could increase the load size of this mains breaker or just purchase a new breaker box. The last time I purchased breaker boxes (sub panel) I purchased long GE boxes which came with a bunch of breakers and accepted 1/2 width breakers so that one can get a lot of them into the box. This box was a 200Amp Mains box with 200Amp service breaker switches. However, I only ran 150Amp 220 volt wire to it. This is safe as I had breakers at the mains box to provide the over all current limit. The other twist to this was that even though I ran wire capable of 150Amp, I used a 125Amp breaker at the mains panel. I did this because the 125Amp breaker only took up two slots. A 150Amp breaker would have taken up 4 slots, much as your current 100Amp sub panel mains switch does.


Any of the breakers which are functioning as pairs (doubles) are providing 220V service. It appears that on the top left hand side of your box you have six breaker slots taken up by 20, 40, and 50Amp double breakers which provide 220V service to some appliances. According to the box labels these are 20 Amp (Electric Heat), 40 Amp (Air Compressor and Door Pump motor), 50 Amp (Welder outlets). Most of the rest of the breakers are for 20 Amp outlets. There is also one labeled Furnace which I assume is for the fan etc. for your gas furnace and a water pump. You have an Eaton (Cuttler Hammer) box. I do not know the model of this box, but many of the Eaton boxes will allow you to put two (half physical width) breakers in the slot where there is currently only one full size breaker. Hence you should have plenty of room in the box for more circuits.

So, I assume your electric heating is using the top left hand pair of slots. 20Amp. This seems like a pretty reasonable heater. This is not a heater which will keep one comfortable in this size of non-insulated shed but may prevent freezing. Clearly you need to get the furnace fixed to be comfortable. As others have said, you seem to have plenty of power capacity. You do not run all of these appliances at the same time so probably never come close to needing more than 100Amp at 220 volts. The welder is the big hitter and you have to ask not only would you be running two or more of these appliances at the same time, but would you have too do so. If not then what is the concern. Even if you have to run your grain dryers you could shut them off for a little bit while you were using the welders or other large current devices.

Anyway, sum up the amperage of all of your breakers. I think you will find that their is the equivalent of 20+40+50+20*(13/2) = 110+130=240Amps at 220volts. Far more than the 100 amp 220volt main breaker. This is normal. Add up the total of the appliances that you would be using simultaneously to see what you absolutely have to have.

Also be aware that a induction motor requires more current to start than it does to run. This is especially true if the motor is under load during start up, such as with a compressor where the tank is already partially pressurized. I once had a 1 HP compressor which would start up just find on a 15Amp breaker service, but it would not cycle with the tank largely full without tripping the breaker. I eventually ran a 20 Amp service.

My recommendation is to simply replace some of your single pole 110V 1 inch wide breakers with 1/2 inch width units and install a couple of double pole 1/2 size breakers to provide 220 service where you need it. So that you can see what I am talking about here are a couple of links to GE breakers. I did not immediately find the equivalent Cutler Hammer (Eaton) units.

Pair of 1 inch coupled breakers to provide 20 Amp 220 service. Similar to what you have for your heater circuit.

Pair of 1/2 inch couple breakers to provide 20Amp 220 service. This unit could replace the unit above and yield a full breaker slot.

Single 1/2 inch breaker to provide 20Amp 110 service. Two of these units could replace two of your current 1" wide breakers freeing up a slot.

Either of the Mills you are looking at appear to run off of 110 volts 20 amp circuits. However, the 728 has 1HP motor and variable speed while the 727 says it is a 1.5HP Motor and its speed is varied via gear settings.

The Lathe you are considering, PM1228VF-LB, power requirement is stated to be "Voltage / Phase/ Amps 120 Volts, 11 Amps". It is China made. Which lathe you really want to get largely depends upon what kind of work you are going to be doing.

Anyway, it appears to me that you current electrical service can be easily upgrade to run even larger machines than these! Will you ever be running both mill, lathe, and welder at the same time?

PS. Before you go out an purchase breakers of any kind you have to make sure that they are physically compatible with the box that you have. You cannot just swap one brand or style for another. While they pretty much all work the same way inside, the physical packages are sometimes quite different and will not physically interchange. The best way to tell is to physically see if a breaker will install into your box.

Good luck.

Dave L.
 
I have 360A of circuits on mine, but I don't have a 5hp fan and well pump on it.

Another way to greatly improve the margin for tripping the main would be to put a 3 phase vfd soft start well pump and controller in. That would eliminate the big sometimes 7000w+ startup spike traditional pumps have. It'll cost up to a few grand, but still maybe peanuts compared to a service upgrade.

Or... Diy the power upgrade. Dig it, lay it, do your own panel and circuits, then sell the old wire for good money to scrap.

But paying someone to lay 900ft, redo the panel and add circuits could be 20k+. Diy maybe $5-7k if you do it really right.

(I still think this can totally be done without a service upgrade...)
 
Well that welder can serve the machines since you would not be using both at once.
 
There is no home associated with shop. Just one 100 amp panel.

You've got options in that panel.

If you have enough power to run a new mill on 120 volts, from the existing outlets, then you've got enough power to run two mills on 240 volts.

The first thing I'm looking at is the welder outlet. That one breaker (I suspect) is all set up for EVERYTHING you need to make the job simple, cheap (relatively cheap anyhow, electrical work is not cheap), and very straight forward, with it's 50 amp rating could power a simple load center right next to the existing panel (with proper label updates to the existing panel). That load center (50 or more rated) can be fed at the existing 50 amps can in turn power the welder outlets at 50 amps, presumably to 6-50R outlets, and another circuit out to a 6-20, 6-30, or whatever the mill calls for, and breakered (in the load center) at the appropriate amperage. The only hiccup to that is I don't see a ground for that circuit, so if the mill wants dual voltage, you'd have to pull that out and plug it into a 120 volt outlet. If that's not feasible, there's about eight other likely good options there as well. None of them deviate from code or standard practice.

Using a resistance heater to say you've maxed the service is probably not fair at all. Each heater you plug in is (probably) drawing something between 25 and 50 amps. You're absolutely going to have to make decisions at that point. as to how many things can be turned on at once.
 
Thanks to all for your help and opinions. I will take a closer look at loads and what is constant, intermittent and what combinations will cause problems. I have several friends who are electricians and will run it by them as well. Better to be safe than lose the thousands of dollars worth of tools and equipment in the shop. My 4WD tractor in the shop along with all the tools and supplies would be a $700,000+ fire loss hit.
 
Thanks to all for your help and opinions. I will take a closer look at loads and what is constant, intermittent and what combinations will cause problems. I have several friends who are electricians and will run it by them as well. Better to be safe than lose the thousands of dollars worth of tools and equipment in the shop. My 4WD tractor in the shop along with all the tools and supplies would be a $700,000+ fire loss hit.
Or...I was just eyeing my Honda backup generator today getting ready to pull it out for power outage winter season. That key start super quiet generator would easily power a 240v mill plus other equipment rated 5500 watts continuous. Retails for $4,500.
 
Or...I was just eyeing my Honda backup generator today getting ready to pull it out for power outage winter season. That key start super quiet generator would easily power a 240v mill plus other equipment rated 5500 watts continuous. Retails for $4,500.
That was my thought also!! But I bet you can make the 100 amp service work for you.
 
Yeah there's already 370 amps of breakers on that 100 amp service.
370 Amps is a bit miss leading.... perhaps ... as the 100Amp service is for 220v at 100Amp, not 110v. What one is really concerned with is the power, which is given by P=IV. I had calculated 13 of the 20Amp 110volt breakers is equivalent to 13/2=6.5 20Amp breakers at 220volts, .... but only if they are equally connected to each side of the 220 volt service. This later issue depends upon how the current is provided in the back plane of the box. Typically every other slot vertically is connected on opposite sides of the 220. This would seem to be the case here for the three 220 breakers to work. See the below quote.
Anyway, sum up the amperage of all of your breakers. I think you will find that their is the equivalent of 20+40+50+20*(13/2) = 110+130=240Amps at 220volts. Far more than the 100 amp 220volt main breaker. This is normal. Add up the total of the appliances that you would be using simultaneously to see what you absolutely have to have.

A 20Amp 110V breaker is designed to trip when >20Amp flows through it. In a 220V circuit the 20Amp flows out one side of the breaker and back through the other provided the load is balanced. (A 220V breaker is really just two 110V breakers fastened together mechanically.) However, not all 220V circuits are balanced. When unbalanced, some of the current may flow via the neutral line. Both the Hot and the Neutral wires are protected. Hence, either side of the 220V breaker is suppose to trip if >20Amp flows on that side. All three wires, Hot+, Hot-, and Neutral are protected....

This then provides a very convenient wiring scheme for a shop, where you know that you are only going to use a few devices at a time, you can have lots of outlets via a single set of wires along a wall/room. A 110V circuit has 3 wires. Hot, Neutral, and Ground. A 220V circuit has 4 wires. Hot+, Hot-, Neutral, and Ground. So if you use a 220V breaker and run the 4 wires along the wall with a bunch of outlets connected to these wires one after another (parallel connections). You can choose each outlet type to be what ever you want it to be. Say, at the first outlet you connect a 220V 20Amp outlet and then continue the wires to the next outlet. For this 220 outlet the current travels along the Hot+ and back along the Hot- as in a conventional 220V circuit. No current is carried in the Neutral. At the next outlet you can hook up a 110V 20Amp duplex outlet to either side of the 220V, say the Hot+ or the Hot-. Here the return current path is the Neutral. Or you can break the bond between the two plugins of the duplex outlets and connect the top to one Hot and the bottom to the other Hot. Then continue to run the wire to the next outlet where you can repeat these patterns. So with one 220V 20Amp breaker circuit you have provided pretty good power distribution all long a wall or even all the way around the room. You could have two 110 volt 20 amp appliances running at the same time. You might think that the neutral along either of these would carry 20+20Amps and be unsafe, but it does not work that way. If only one appliance is on at a time then the Neutral returns the 20 Amps. If two of the appliances are on at the same time then the current to one appliance can be returned via the neutral or via the Hot of the other appliance so the neutral actually carries less than 20Amps and if the two appliances required the same amount of current then the neutral going back to the breaker carries essentially zero current. So all is safe!

As I mentioned this is a very convenient wiring scheme. Suppose at some date the future you decide you need 220V 20Amp service at a particular location along the wall but that location was being used for a 110 outlet. All 4 wires are already in the box. Just change the outlet type and its local wiring to 220. You do not have to run new wires or connect up a new breaker at the box! 3 plus ground wire is a little more expensive than 2 plus ground, but not when you figure you do not have to run multiple sets of wires.

Dave L.
 
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