TouchDRO Plus is out (plus some loose ends)

[verbotenwhisky]

Green & Red? With 0.000 in White?

Yes, it would make seeing the transition much easier..

 

[ycroosh]

Are Samsung tablets still a no go?

I generally try to keep the website up to date. This page in particular lists known-good tablets:

System Requirements

Samsung tablets stopped being a no-go a year ago or so. I found a workaround to keep BlueTooth alive, and haven't heard of any issues.

 

[Revilo]

Oh good, i must have missed that

 

[tommybees]

So being a hobbyist, I cobbled together the ESP board from scratch... just for the challenge. All went well until the latest + version came out with the novel PNG or maybe DFX import capability. Is the + version really only available on a premade board? I fully understand the issue with authentication, but at this point, I have a fully functional self made case, board, connectors, PS and all and would rather not have to toss it to get to the next payable version and to buy a new board. I post this in hopes of replies to see if there are enough folks like me that could justify a possible change in strategy?

 

[ycroosh]

So being a hobbyist, I cobbled together the ESP board from scratch... just for the challenge. All went well until the latest + version came out with the novel PNG or maybe DFX import capability. Is the + version really only available on a premade board? I fully understand the issue with authentication, but at this point, I have a fully functional self made case, board, connectors, PS and all and would rather not have to toss it to get to the next payable version and to buy a new board. I post this in hopes of replies to see if there are enough folks like me that could justify a possible change in strategy?

So my plan was to have a way to buy a standalone version, but as time goes by, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I will not be doing this.
There are two issues:
One is basic economics. The amount of effort is no-trivial, and potential payoff is likely very small. My rough estimate is 400-500 hours to get the whole thing set up. Now keep in mind that most cases people scratch-build their TouchDRO adapters to save money. Until this year, a fully assembled board sold for $99 (and the quadrature kit sold for $59). Judging by google statistics, about 5% of TouchDRO users bought a board from me (kit, or otherwise). This means that 95% of people went through the hassle of building an adapter on a breadboard for save $20-$40, compared to a kit.

For a standalone purchase to make any sense, the price would need to be around $50 (possibly more), or something like $20 per year subscription. I seriously doubt that many people who went through the trouble of a DIY build for the sake of a few $10 will pay $50 for Plus features.

Second (and more important), is support overhead. More than 90% of the time I spend on technical support for DIY builders. For example, in June I had one case where a customer had some sort of connection glitch with his TDA-400 board, so the hand-shake failed and he de-activated TouchDRO Plus and had to re-created a new configuration to re-activate it (i.e. single support case for a thing I sold). Just this week I had 6 email threads and two Facebook messenger threads with people having issues with Shahe scales and/or scratch-built adapters (8 total, if you are counting).

To put it bluntly, scratch-built TouchDRO hardware is the bane of my existence. The reason I can't get anything done these days is because I'm spending silly amount of time helping people who have no clue what they are doing, but decide to DIY-build a TouchDRO adapter. As a nice side bonus, some portion of them fails regardless, and then they run around leaving bad reviews and complaining how TouchDRO is an unreliable piece of crap.

I'm committed to offering a DIY path, but I REALLY don't want to encourage it. The DIY design is not crippled in any way (and in some regards has more functionality than the kit I currently sell. I don't hide any core functionality behind the "pay wall", but unless something changes drastically, Plus will be TDA-400/420 only thing.
Well, almost, I'm still trying to figure out a way to allow people with the previous version of Quadrature adapter to upgrade, once I figure out a workaround for a BlueTooth OTA update limitation.

I realize that this is not the answer you wanted to hear, but I'm being open and honest about this.
Hope it makes sense
Yuriy

 

[MidniteMachinist]

So my plan was to have a way to buy a standalone version, but as time goes by, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I will not be doing this.

Thing is... I've got 5 machines with existing setups, that all work fine. I'm part of that 5% that bought pre-built boards... I could've gone the DIY route, but I wanted to support this. Now, unless I buy 5 new adapters, I'm shut out of the Plus version.

All my current setups have touch probe and tachometer functionalities (I use the touch probe extensively), that are now only available on the TDA-420 adapter. Further, if I'm understanding correctly, the Plus version of the app will only work on the TDA-420 adapters.

So, if I want the current Plus functionalities (or any future Plus-only additions) on all my machines, I'm shelling out $1500. Staring in the face of that, $50 for the standalone Plus app doesn't sound unreasonable.

More than 90% of the time I spend on technical support for DIY builders.

To put it bluntly, scratch-built TouchDRO hardware is the bane of my existence.

I'm committed to offering a DIY path, but I REALLY don't want to encourage it.

...What? Why on earth are you committed to the DIY path, then? DIY doesn't put money in your pocket, and it sure sounds like you're well past "doing it for the community". Offer it if you really want, but have a disclaimer that there's no support offered. Sell the 4 versions you have on the TouchDRO site (and for the love of all that is holy, please put touch probe functionality in all of them!), and concentrate on making the app the best it can be. I'm sure you'd have plenty of people (myself included) lining up for a paid Plus version.

 

[tommybees]

Thanks for the thoughtful and honest reply Yuri.

DYI'rs are an odd bunch indeed. There is no rational to purchase a piece of equipment such as a mill for a home use hobby and in fact a little insane to think of a 1/2 ton (at least) of iron sitting in a garage costing several k $ in order to make or build partially useful stuff that is neither economical to make (so many hours) nor as nice as a simple low cost high volume Amazonish purchase. On the other hand, if I were a Pro Shop with paying customers, I probably would shy away from a product that may or may not be supported a few months from now in the first place.

In my case, I am trying to make my own MTB bike hub....why? Buying a DRO vs hacking, purchasing or entertaining a private DRO in hopes that either are functional or supported is also a bit of a waste of time to debate. I spun up my own DRO board, first time using UV film, and blew thru at least 3 attempts of failed etchings...vs $20 or so for professional PCBs. Again a huge waste of time as well as the other half a dozen or so other half built projects that went dark sitting on my shelf of shame. I digress, but think the points are valid that hobbies like this with purchases of this or that do not make sense at all and some like me would pay for the the features that I cannot do myself. It is not about the $'s, it is about the value. Believe it or not, $50 is something I would pay for considering the basic app is free and should not be and so paying for the upgraded version is rationally ok. At the same time, if something is stated as free and then after years of improvements, upgrades with user feedback that goes into $ mode is not ok (yeah you, STRAVA, TrailForks and more). And alais, most projects do go dark in the end anyway....even paid versions.

In any case, the purpose of my note is to garner interest, but realize now that if it truly is hundreds of hours of extra coding time, a hard no is justified. And keep up the good work and sorry to hear that the support side of things are the biggest challenges, but rationally expected and part of the game. I would suggest a more forceful forum apporach.....no direct 1:1 support unless you know it is a bug or product issue that needs to be investigated.

 

[JFL4066]

I bought two pre-built boards for mag and optic scales. I beta tested the Plus version capabilities and they are very nice. I would pay for the Plus capabilites for my existing boards. I would not buy two new boards to get the capabilities. (Take the older pre-built boards back for credit paid?)
If the DIYers are your sink hole of time then you need to charge a support fee for them. Period.

 

[bulgie]

To put it bluntly, scratch-built TouchDRO hardware is the bane of my existence. The reason I can't get anything done these days is because I'm spending silly amount of time helping people who have no clue what they are doing, but decide to DIY-build a TouchDRO adapter. As a nice side bonus, some portion of them fails regardless, and then they run around leaving bad reviews and complaining how TouchDRO is an unreliable piece of crap.

That story was so poignant I read it to my wife, who has zero interest in machining and doesn't know a DRO from a hole in the ground. Nevertheless she was touched by your plight. She said it sounds like you've painted yourself into a corner. The thing to do is walk right out, even if you get footprints in your paintjob, just tear off the bandaid. Oh man am I mixing my metaphors. What I'm saying is, cut the DIY folks loose and suffer the consequences, which will probably be minor and fleeting, and then get on with doing what you want to do.

I know I personally will forgive you! I think the entire TDRO community benefits from having you concentrating on what's important. Having you get burnt out and quit, however unlikely that is, is the nightmare scenario. Must avoid that at all costs. Are you giving yourself vacations? I strongly recommend it! And turn off your devices while you're gone, we'll get by OK until you're back. It's not a vacation if you're on-call the whole time.

Unsolicited advice, worth what you paid for it.

 

[ycroosh]

Thank you for the advice and feedback, guys. Much appreciated.
I have been told by several people (including my wife, who has a business degree) that I should cut off the DIY-ers. I get that rationally, if i want to maximize my revenue/profits, it would make sense to stop giving the thing away, etc. but this is not a 100% rational project At this point I'm too emotionally invested into the "community", and pulling the plug and going 100% commercial just doesn't sit well with me.
I am to a degree pulling a plug when it comes to the Plus version. No matter how I slice it, adding a standalone purchase option doesn't pan out financially. The amount of effort is very high, and my estimate is that the payoff will be pretty low. If I find data that changes my mind, I will reconsider.

My short-term plan is to move the DIY stuff to a separate website (I already have the diy-dro.com domain, so might as well use it for the DIY stuff), update the docs for the ESP32 build (and plaster DO NOT USE across anything MSP430-based) and add disclaimers along the lines "this stuff definitely works; thousands of people use it, so if it doesn't work for you, it's something you did wrong and I can't help you figure it out". I'm not sure this will stop the emails/messages, but I can try.

As far as features, I think that "you pay more, you get more" approach is fair. The free version is not crippled in any way. I.e. I didn't remove any features when the Plus version came out, and it will keep getting more new functionality.

I get that replacing five DIY adapters with new TDA-420 at $300 each is expensive for a hobbyist, but this is a cost/benefit calculation. "Do I get enough functionality in the Plus version to justify $300?". If not, then problem solved.
For a business, this should not be a problem (to start with, the DIY firmware license if "free" for personal use, so technically/legally businesses should not be using DIY adapters).
As I mentioned before, I will have an upgrade path for the second generation glass/quadrature adapters. That will cover close to 80% of the units I sold since 2021 (just need to figure out one last issue with BlueTooth OTA update code and set up the "infrastructure").

Anyway, just thinking out loud mostly.
I'm on vacation in BC at the moment. Waiting my daughter to finish taking shower so we can head out towards Mt. Whistler...

Regards
Yuriy