Speak up or shut up?

[markba633csi]

Seems kind of backwards don't it? Seems to me the college should be the finishing touch on a course of learning started at an early age
That's how it happened for me, I went to community college to brush up on theory and math that I hadn't picked up on my own even though
I had been into electrical things since I was a kid

 

[pontiac428]

You found the morally correct answer to the classical trolley car dilemma. It's a hard choice but the right choice.

 

[strantor]

Seems kind of backwards don't it? Seems to me the college should be the finishing touch on a course of learning started at an early age
That's how it happened for me, I went to community college to brush up on theory and math that I hadn't picked up on my own even though
I had been into electrical things since I was a kid

I think college is a decision best made by adults and I do not include 18 year olds in "adults" 90% of the time. Unless you have a passion for something from an early age I think you are better served by going out into the world and learning a bit about yourself and about things you might want to do, things you might be good at, and things you definitely don't want to do or definitely aren't good at. You can get paid to "find yourself" and I think that beats the pants off going into crushing debt to go to college, change your major a few times and end up with a degree in something you have no idea whether is actually a good fit for you. A few years of experience working double overtime will do wonders to make the "heavy work load" of full time college feel not so oppressive.

Or at least that's how it worked for me. I didn't go to college until after 4 years of military service followed by few years as maintenance tech in a production plant. I quit my job and moved my wife and kids into a spare room at my mom's house so I could go full time to college. I got bored my first year and started a LLC, ended up making more than I was expecting to make with the Engineering degree I was intent on pursuing, so I broke off pursuit. I suppose your story is similar to mine in that I just went to community college and brushed up on math. I could not believe how much those kids complained. It was like going back to high school. Living the Billy Madison life.

 

[Dabbler]

Seems kind of backwards don't it? Seems to me the college should be the finishing touch on a course of learning started at an early age

Engineering shares some characteristics with the medical profession. There can be huge consequences to every decision. Physicians intern to acquire the practical experiencve to make these decisions 'righter' more often. Engineering is similar. You can know all the math, but how to apply it appropriately is the art in engineering. Most engineers are considered junior for at least the first 5 years.

 

[brino]

It looks like I am late to the thread as the outcome is already heading in the proper direction, but.....

Before I sent the email I could only envision the workplace injury scenarios. Now that I have sent it, I can only envision a guy going home to his kids and telling them everything is going to be alright while wondering how he's going to pay rent this month.

Without you stepping in this guy likely would just not be going home to his family one night, but dead on the job instead.
....and if not him, then someone around him.

@strantor great question, framed perfectly clearly and I can tell this gets to you.
Let yourself off the hook, You absolutely did the right thing!

@kcoffield, @Eddyde and @Dabbler thanks for continuing to make this site great with thoughtful and wise responses.
It is so refreshing to have a place of calm, caring sanity on the internet.

Brian

 

[strantor]

Engineering shares some characteristics with the medical profession. There can be huge consequences to every decision. Physicians intern to acquire the practical experiencve to make these decisions 'righter' more often. Engineering is similar. You can know all the math, but how to apply it appropriately is the art in engineering. Most engineers are considered junior for at least the first 5 years.

You're right but Engineering (with the exception of certain corners, ex: building bridges) isn't quite as cut & dried as medicine. It gets downright blurry in some areas. You can invent/design (Engineer) a widget, manufacture it in your garage, and sell it locally or on eBay. There is no law saying your widget must be designed by a Professional Engineer or even reviewed and stamped by one. But there definitely laws saying that you can't perform sex change operations in your garage.

I am in a position that, by my own admission, I should probably be prohibited from occupying. My title at work is Controls Engineer but I have no Engineering degree (or any degree, or any kind of certification whatsoever) yet I am allowed to design systems to control machinery that has the potential to kill people in gruesome ways if I don't do my job right. How is this allowed to be true? I honestly don't know. I know the law (in TX, and I assume similar elsewhere) says that my employer can give me the title of Engineer as long as they don't introduce me to clients as an Engineer for hire. I am allowed to design equipment used in-house and would be allowed to design consumer products for sale, if that was the kind of business my employer engaged in. But for my own business, I can't use the word "Engineer" in any of its forms.

Imagine what the Engineering departments look like at factories that make dildos, bongs, fidget spinners, hammers, etc.; do you think they are brimming with pedigreed folk? I doubt it. Somehow what I do is no different (although personally I think it should be).

There is no medical equivalent to my position. Closest thing in the civilian sector is probably a nurse practitioner but actually probably more analogous to a combat medic. I have the authority to do just about everything a doctor would, except for certain niche situations that don't come up, and without the long academic requirements. I have been doing it so long that, had I actually gotten my degree, I don't think I would remember much from school and I would have 4 years less experience.

 

[ChazzC]

“Engineer” depends on the context: if you are providing Engineering Services you must be a PE; if you are in an Engineering position then the requirements are reduced, but you need to understand the differences, and your employer also needs to understand “Engineer” implies that you have a PE and will be responsible for PE decisions such as Boiler incidents.

 

[savarin]

You definitely did the correct thing and should congratulate yourself for doing so.
I retired 12 years ago from teaching at what you would call a community college and find it very difficult to believe in how low the bar has been set on all the courses these days.
I think there is way too much of "Yesterday I couldnt spel the wurd inginear, now I is one"

 

[strantor]

“Engineer” depends on the context: if you are providing Engineering Services you must be a PE;

Yes, the PE license, not any degree, is actually what the law stipulates. To get the license you must have an Engineering degree, but only about 20% of degreed Engineers have a PE license. So the other 80% are actually in the same boat as I am; they just get fewer questions because "Engineering degree = Engineer."

if you are in an Engineering position then the requirements are reduced, but you need to understand the differences, and your employer also needs to understand “Engineer” implies that you have a PE

I think this must vary by state. I have gone over the TX laws in detail and didn't see anything suggesting this. Might be a wise thing to ask an attorney about.

 

[Dabbler]

yet I am allowed to design systems to control machinery that has the potential to kill people in gruesome ways if I don't do my job right. How is this allowed to be true?

We both live in this back-end world where we design critical systems, but aren't members of a PE Society.

Yes, the PE license, not any degree, is actually what the law stipulates. To get the license you must have an Engineering degree, but only about 20% of degreed Engineers have a PE license. So the other 80% are actually in the same boat as I am; they just get fewer questions because "Engineering degree = Engineer."

The difference is all about legal liability. In all my contracts, I have a 'fit for use' clause. It puts the sole liability and responsibility upon the client to ensure they are fully satisfied that the item is fit for use. Depending on jurisdiction, other caveats may be required.

However as an in-house designer, regardless of possible consequences, your company has to shoulder all of the legal burden in the event of a legal exposure. In all the jurisdictions I am familiar with, you as an employee, but not a professional engineer, does not take on liability unless *malfeasance* on your part is a factor. If you *were* a PE, then you automatically assume a considerable professional risk if it comes to that. That is why I never joined my PE society. My plan all along was to consult, and erect a legal barrier to inclusion in any suit.