SMAW/Stick machines - options?

[FlyFishn]

For your price range you can get an Everlast 200 amp unit.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/POWERARC-200ST-SMAW-GTAW-Stick-200amp-DC-TIG-welder-by-Everlast-NOVA/202859497534?epid=2256316213&hash=item2f3b5e483e:g:WLMAAOSw64ha50h0

Then I look at the other models and find the PowerArc 300 version. At 240 amps and under it has a 100% duty cycle for $620 or so. Though, they are DC-only power supplies. No AC.

PowerArc 300ST | Everlast Generators

Need pure stick welding power and need lots of it in a small package? Need a DC TIG welder for those projects that require portability and power? No problem. The all new PowerARC 300 ST from Everlast can fill the need with 300 amps of DC Stick and TIG welding power. Pick a welding rod, and it...

www.everlastgenerators.com

 

[NCjeeper]

With that unit you can run 6010 rods too so there really isn't a need to have a machine with ac.

 

[FlyFishn]

Looking at the HTP lineup - their Inverarc 200 is in the same ballpark of equipment type. Yet they want $1500 for it. Looking at the duty cycles it goes like this:
115a = 100%
130a = 60%
200a = 10%

Thats a light-duty machine for $1500.

In comparison, the Everlast PowerArc 300 is $620 and duty cycles (both stick and tig, same ratings) look like this:
300a = 60%
240a = 100%

I'll have to dig in to the specs a bit to see what is so noteworthy of the HTP - but for more than double the cost there better be something spectacular in it.

The price of the Everlast units really does make me second guess what is on the used market. Though, I am not sure about the "technology" aspect of the new units. There is something more rugged about the old analog stuff...

 

[f350ca]

Unless you need the portability of an inverter welder, its hard to beat the reliability of a transformer welder. Unless you grossly exceed the duty rating they run forever. They use a bridge rectifier, so you get 120 positive cycles per second, you don't notice any pulsing.

Greg

 

[FlyFishn]

Unless you need the portability of an inverter welder, its hard to beat the reliability of a transformer welder. Unless you grossly exceed the duty rating they run forever. They use a bridge rectifier, so you get 120 positive cycles per second, you don't notice any pulsing.

Greg

Good points.

As to the 120 cycles - you are correct, sir. My head was swimming in trig with phase angles in my earlier post - bold added:

If you take an AC signal and run it through a rectifier you will not have clean DC on the output. The power out of the rectifier will pulse at 30hz with a 60hz AC input - the opposite cycle of the voltage will be reversed and stacked with the initial cycle. So your 60hz signal is still there, twice, on top of each other = 30hz pulsed DC. It is DC because the voltage is all either above or below 0. It does not cycle polarities - that is what the rectifier is to correct.

My theory was explained correctly but the phase angles got mis-labeled as the frequency cutting in half, not doubling. The peaks go from 1 cycle every 360 degrees to 1 pulse (no more cycle in the reverse polarity) every 180 degrees = the 1/2 of where my head went as it came out spelled as frequency.

Its all good. Now back to the regularly scheduled program...

 

[FlyFishn]

On the subject of Everlast machines:

The PowerArc 210STL looks promising. It is a lighter machine than the 300, having the following duty cycles (on 240v):
200a = 35%
160a = 60%
130a = 100%

Price is $450.

PowerArc 210STL - Stick Welders | Everlast Generators

Take a close look. You'll see that inverter-based PowerARC 210STL is designed with the Professional in mind. But, if you happened to just judge by the price alone, you'd guess that this is a hobby welder. But you'd be wrong. The all new PowerARC 210STL takes into account nearly 10 years worth of...

www.everlastgenerators.com

The bonuses - it can run a foot pedal with TIG, has E6010 capability, and is dual-voltage capable (not a big deal, it would be on 240). There are some other details in there like VRD and an anti-stick function for stuck electrodes.

I am not sure if there is a current comparison between AC and DC, but the project I did last round was started at 150a and I dropped the current to 90a to prevent blowing through thinner metal. If I stuck to the thicker metal I'd likely have kept running at 150. That was AC with 6011 electrodes, 3/32". I would like to go thicker on the electrodes so as to be able to lay down more filler per run. So I imagine that is where extra current will come in - thicker electrodes will need more current, comparatively. If DC takes noticeably less current, say 130a DC would be like 150a AC, then maybe there is more head room in a 200a machine than I am thinking at the moment.

 

[General Zod]

Looking at the HTP lineup - their Inverarc 200 is in the same ballpark of equipment type. Yet they want $1500 for it. Looking at the duty cycles it goes like this:
115a = 100%
130a = 60%
200a = 10%

Thats a light-duty machine for $1500.

In comparison, the Everlast PowerArc 300 is $620 and duty cycles (both stick and tig, same ratings) look like this:
300a = 60%
240a = 100%

I'll have to dig in to the specs a bit to see what is so noteworthy of the HTP - but for more than double the cost there better be something spectacular in it.

The price of the Everlast units really does make me second guess what is on the used market. Though, I am not sure about the "technology" aspect of the new units. There is something more rugged about the old analog stuff...

Trust me, it is a spectacular machine with respect to the quality of the arc. Those duty cycle ratings are for 104°F ambient temperatures. Unless you live in the truly hotter states like me (South Texas), you'll never trip the duty cycle if you're only doing 100-125A with 1/8" electrodes in ~80°F ambient temps. You'd have to weld constantly and non-stop, changing electrodes back-to-back with no chipping of flux, weld-prep, to get it to thermal-out. A highly unlikely scenario. The special quality is not anywhere in the specs. The electronics and the quality of the power supply/inverter inside the machine is absolute state-of-the-art as per my conversation with an HTP tech consultant, and he has two top-quality Lincoln engine-drives (vantage 400 and another one, can't remember), so he isn't just all "fluff". It's just one of those things that have to be experienced in person to understand. As for everlast machines, I would suspect that some of their duty cycle numbers might be inflated, but I am not presenting that as fact, just opinion, after having seen pictures/videos of the insides.

 

[FlyFishn]

The special quality is not anywhere in the specs. The electronics and the quality of the power supply/inverter inside the machine is absolute state-of-the-art as per my conversation with an HTP tech consultant, and he has two top-quality Lincoln engine-drives (vantage 400 and another one, can't remember), so he isn't just all "fluff". It's just one of those things that have to be experienced in person to understand.
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As for everlast machines, I would suspect that some of their duty cycle numbers might be inflated, but I am not presenting that as fact, just opinion, after having seen pictures/videos of the insides.

Thanks for the detail. As to the duty cycles - I imagine you are probably on track there with the inflation thought.

I would be curious what happens in those machines if you surpass the duty cycle. Do they self-protect?

The flux core machine I have is transformer-based and the time I know I overloaded it the transformer blew smoke. I suspect that was the paper insulation and potting epoxy among the windings. I'll check it out today - I suspect the enamel on the magnet wire burnt and there are some internal shorts = where the tingles I get from the work clamp come from when its plugged in.

My point on the duty cycle though is, at least on the cheap machines, there isn't any protection from over-load conditions. I would imagine with all the technology in inverters that there would be some protection.

Though, if there is protection that could be about as frustrating as GFCI breakers tripping - cutting off the power routinely in the middle of your project. I would hope what ever duty cycle a machine has would be able to keep up with the kind of welding I do. I guess only time would tell that, though.

 

[General Zod]

I would be curious what happens in those machines if you surpass the duty cycle. Do they self-protect?

I would imagine with all the technology in inverters that there would be some protection.

"Those" meaning everlast? Your guess is as good as mine, as I don't own any. You'd think any and all inverters would self-protect and shut down, but not so. I was welding with my Millermatic 211 inverter back in 2018. Full-bore on ¼" - 3/8" steel, thinking the same thing. Nope. I kept welding until it shut down, but when it did, it was because the main board let the magic smoke out. I'm sure the yellow over-temp light came on, but I didn't see it, so when it shut down, it was already too late. Luckily Milller covered the board replacement under warranty. 1 week later I had a HTP Pro Pulse 300 on my truck and never looked back (except to sell the Miller 211 inverter).

The HTP MIG units do indeed have both over-current and thermal shutdown when things go astray. If you try to weld with more current that it is rated for at maximum for too long, the LCD displays over-current warning in Red, and the output is reduced so as to not nuke the internals. Some find it annoying because that over-current protection doesn't shut off the output altogether, but rather it drops the WFS to a safe value (which ruins the weld parameters since WFS needs to be within a certain range for the Volts). I can see it from their perspective, but I'd rather have an ugly inch or two of weld to grind out and re-do, than have a $2000+ doorstop. On the thermal protection from sheer exceeding duty cycle, the entire output is shut off altogether.

Of course for stick welders it's simpler because you can't alter the current (once you set it) the way you can with MIGs where you can alter it after you set the WFS by shortening your CTWD. For inverter stick welders, it's either current or no current; at least that's how it is on mine.

 

[FlyFishn]

I think I'm going to get the Everlast Powerarc 210STL. The idea is to have it as a stick machine from the start. Then add TIG later.

Thinking about it - at the price point - as a stick machine out-of-the-box it is the same price of a used Lincoln AC/DC 225 (tombstone) locally, has a 100% duty cycle up to 130 amps, has variable arc force and variable hot start (not auto or fixed value on/off). Plus it can be upgraded to run TIG with a torch and gas for thinner metal (thinner than you can go with stick, for sure, as to how thin realistically I don't know yet). So for stick alone it packs a lot of features for the price - much more so than the Lincoln AC/DC 225. I think that is worth a shot to try it.

I'll post back later. If anyone else is curious about them - there are a few videos on it and the 200STI (similar) on YouTube. I don't think anything I would have to offer on usability/features/first impressions would be anything not already covered in what one can already find online, but ya never know.