Non hydraulic press?

[MrWhoopee]

I bought my 3-ton arbor press specifically for broaching. I've broken one or two broaches in a powered hydraulic press, never in an arbor press. Having said that, while I've used my press numerous time, I've yet to broach a keyway with it.

 

[m1kemex]

Thank you for your answers. I've never owned a press before, that's why I want to understand the basics before jumping to buy one.

I don't do metal bending (mostly because I don't have a press!) but setting bearings and punching stuff is something I need to do in the short term. As beefy as an arbor press looks, 3 tons seems to be on the low side on tonnage. Therefore, I'd like to know what I'm missing if I begin with the arbor press only and put acquiring an hydraulic press on hold.

5T seems to be the largest commercial press they offer, but it seems quite expensive, for what it is.

Also, I still don't understand what's the limitation of an H frame press, compared to an arbor one. It seems to me that a long piece could simply fit front-back. Are there many instances you need to fit a work piece so large it doesn't fit between the columns of an H frame?

 

[Larry$]

Are there many instances you need to fit a work piece so large it doesn't fit between the columns of an H frame?

I'm sure there could be instances, especially in a commercial shop. In the years I've had my press, as a hobbyist, that has never come up. It was purchased originally to press bearings on & off machine shafts in my business. The limitation was the space between the horizontal supports not the H frame. There were a couple of times that the 20 ton jack couldn't generate enough force. Just handling that size shaft was difficult enough to position. The present cheap 20 ton presses are smaller and more lightly made than my old one. Some also come with cast press plates, a really bad idea I think. For the rare occasion we needed a bigger press we went to a big machine shop.

Now as a hobbyist in retirement I still have my old hydraulic press and the 3 ton arbor press. If space or $ restricts your choices go for the hydraulic press. If you feel the need for speed put an air operated jack system on it for cheap. Even as a hobbyist there are so many tools I'd like to have, that I don't spend excessive sums on things that "MAY" someday be "needed." If someday you need a 50 ton press maybe by then you will have made your fortune and can buy one or just go to a shop that has one.

 

[C-Bag]

5T seems to be the largest commercial press they offer, but it seems quite expensive, for what it is.

+1! I’ve seen old 12tn arbor presses but for me they were stupid expensive. I’ve not run into one I could afford and it took me almost 20yrs to find my 2tn Jet arbor press. I was doing a bit of broaching so it came at the perfect time and for $35 I couldn’t pass it up. Little did I know it would be so handy. I’ve ended up making a special stand for it and several attachments for sheetmetal bending and forming. I have a sheetmetal beader and the arbor with a blade attachment with a rubber hockey puck under it was perfect for taking the warp out of the formed metal. I’ve never seen anybody on YouTube doing that just using a stretcher but tried it and it worked better than a stretcher. And way more accessible. There is no limit what it can be used for. I use it where I used to beat stuff with a hammer. Way more control and way less damage.

I tried to adapt a sheetmetal notcher to it but it’s not as precise in its movement(it flexes too much). When I found the 22tn H frame screw press I thought I’d not need the arbor press anymore but not at all true. In the catalog for the screw press they call the arbor press a speed press and that’s one of its major advantages and so many times that couple of tons of force is just what I need. I use it more than the screw press. For me where the arbor press leaves off the screw press started so the two work perfectly together.

 

[projectnut]

In the scheme of things, I think you'll get more use out of a hydraulic press than an arbor press. I built my hydraulic press around 1990 and didn't get the arbor press until 2002. I used the hydraulic one on a regular basis without any problems. At the time I didn't have any broaches and was taking parts that needed internal keyways to a friend's commercial shop. When the time came that he didn't have the needed broach I decided it was time to purchase my own set, and an arbor press.

In those days a good arbor press cost around $1,000.00. While one would have come in handy it was well out of the budget. The one I currently have came from a machine shop in Iowa that closed down. It was purchased by an employee and sat in his garage for several years. I traded a used Toro lawnmower for the press.

 

[Ultradog MN]

I'm thinking about getting a Chinese arbor press. They have a 3T ratcheting type on sale for about $250, which is very tempting.

But then I wonder: what if I need a higher tonnage?

If I understand it correctly, hydraulic presses dominate the market because hydraulics in general are quite cheap compared to mechanical drive systems. But if money wasn't an issue, what prevents me from building a rack (or maybe screw) type press that allows for a much finer control?

I've noticed that arbor presses come with open throats, compared to H frames. Is that an absolute requirement for the typical kind of jobs you do on them?

I may be a lone voice crying from the wilderness but I simply will not buy China machines.
That said, an arbor press is a Very handy machine.
I have a 3 ton Greenerd that I use often.
It does have its limitations however - work envelopep, strength, etc.
Some day I hope to have a hydraulic press of about 30 to 40 ton.
But it would be in Addition to my Greenerd.
For so many tasks an arbor press is so quick, easy and adequate for the job that I would be loathe to lose it.

 

[JohnWold]

I converted my shop-built press to use a screw instead of the rack and pinion.
Previously, even with a long bar I often couldn't get the force needed to do the job at hand.

 

[m1kemex]

I think it's because of the economy of scale in the smaller end stuff. up to 20 or 30 tons maybe, for argument's sake. (Including but not limited to junk, the good brands of light presses are included). Hydraulics are more popular because you get the most force and speed per effort applied. So the parts are rolling out of the factories in large quantities, versus uncommon styles.

Assuming that you already have the stock, you can get a bottle jack for less than the cost of tool wear making a screw.

Yeah, that's what I thought: it's much cheaper to polish a cylinder than to cut a large screw (or rack). Hoses are cheap. Fluids are cheap. Everything in a typical small tonnage press is quite cheap to make; plus they make maybe hundreds of thousands per yer. Like with the small drill presses, a modern hydraulic press is the promise of cheap (universally available) technology fulfilled.

But where is the catch? That's my question.

Nothing prevents that except maybe your willingness to do some engineering calculations to be sure that you're getting what you're shooting for. (...)

If I make one I'll just overbuild it; sort of a safety margin in construction / lifting equipment.

Bottom line: if I get to make it, I'll do it for myself, to my liking. I don't see a problem spending money if I'm spending it on myself...

The H frame presses are the most popular for sure, but there's other takes on that too. Not really in anything practical outside of industry, but the H frames are compact for their rating, take the smallest reasonable amount of material to build for their rating, don't take an undue amount of space for their productivity, are very versatile, and are quite popular, meaning that specialized accessories for pressing tend to be geared towards that design.

The arbor press, when used for general purposes, has a (relatively) small pass through area, BUT, it's pretty wide open. That gives a lot of freedom about what you can get in there. On the other hand, the frame is only so deep, and that's a big limitation. An H frame has no depth restriction on the front or the back, but the sides are kinda always there. That makes it awkward to for example, straighten a long bar.

There seems to be the catch. A C (open) frame press is inherently more expensive than an H (closed) frame. It takes more material to get the same level of structural resistance. But you get easier access in return; more practicality. Even with H frames that use beams on each side and have clearance in the middle, to take in and out a long work piece must cumbersome; specially if it's a heavy one.

Another thing I've noticed is that H frame presses are built out of steel and arbor presses are made of cast iron. As nice as cast iron is for some other applications, I don't really see much benefit here. It makes the tool twice as heavy because cast iron has about half the strength of steel.

So what about an "hybrid v" design? Like two C frames joined at the middle:

Seems like it'd have (some of) the advantages of both kinds of presses.

The bottom line is, what do YOU want to do with this thing, and that'll guide you on to what type is best.

I'd rather have one good press than several. I think people often ignore that space is money too.

Plus I think that a huge press is something you'll spend money only once in life.

And what materials might you have access to? You're not going to buy the steel (forget the hardware and mechanisms) to build a press for what you can buy one for.

Well, I'm not sure that applies in this case. Like I said, an arbor press is usually made of cast iron and weights quite a bit. There is a lot of money on materials alone. With steel you need less materials, plus there is a chance to get them from the junkyard.

Last I checked a Dake 15T press costs 12K so I think this is one of those projects that will actually save you money over buying things readily made. Plus I can just call Dake and order a readily made rack / pinion / ratchet / pawl... it's not like I have to do everything.

how much space do you have?

I have a shop separate from home. Like 50 square meters, but usable space is less discounting the bathroom and a giant concrete closet I built to keep the tools locked. Something in the lines of 30.

 

[Weldingrod1]

Generally H frame presses rattle around more. More slopply per ton.
Arbor presses are generally much closer clearances.

Structurally, an H frame is FAR more efficient tons per pound of press.

I think in small sizes the arbor press is a lot more precise, but when it's GOTTA move, H and hydraulic is the way to go.


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[m1kemex]

The open throat allows you to put a longer shaft in to press bearings on or off. Not a problem on a hydraulic press because of plenty of opening clearances. There are limits to how tight of a bearing you can push off with an arbor press.
I've got an older 20 ton hydraulic press, bottle jack type. Works fine for pressing bearings on or off shafts and with adapters for using it as a brake. But before I got a "3" ton arbor press I was using it for broaching. Lots & lots of strokes to make a small keyway! Harbor Frt has a cheap air operated hydraulic add on that makes for faster operation but it costs almost as much as the arbor press. The arbor press is much faster to broach with. It needs to be setup with clearance for the length of the broaches. Even the 3 Ton model doesn't have a lot of vertical clearance.

It seems to me that there is some issue here, like with vertical vs horizontal milling machines. For the kind of things you're mentioning, it'd be better if it was horizontal. It's just that gravity doesn't help...

It needs to be securely attached to a stand or bench because it is top heavy and the leverage on the handle needs to be offset by the mass of the press stand and anchorage.

Ok. I'll make a good stand for it.

I did a few minor mods to the Vevor press I bought and it works fine. The Vevor is really cheap and better than I had expected. The thin plywood box it came in was totally trashed but no damages inside. The bottom of the ram comes drilled for putting attachments that you can make to suit the job at hand. If you can come by an old press with more vertical clearance that may be of use for your applications.

Glad to know. That's the one I'm after. I've ordered a few things from Vevor and I think it's perfectly acceptable.