Models for grinding HSS Lathe Tools

One advantage of grinding your own - you don't have to wait for tooling. You know that grooving tool you guys recommended? I bought that on the 13th. You know, just because. I was wondering where it was. Just looked it up. It's now scheduled to be delivered on May 15th! Yeah, it's great to be able to grind your own. Someday I'll use that magic grooving tool. But I don't have to wait for it, because I made my own, and the job is already done. :cool:
 
I don't see why they can't. If old Wobbly Hand fumble fingers can grind one, anyone can. All done by eye and a sharpy marker on metal, just like your instructions said. That, and a wee bit of tenacity to see things through.
 
I'm just guessing but I suspect the vast majority of hobby machinists use carbide lathe tools. Its only been since this thread came into existence that this has started to change, at least on this forum. Out there, in non-HM land, carbide rules. Tool geometry is confusing and understanding what you're grinding and why you're grinding it that way is not easy. It is much simpler to just buy a cheap insert on ebay and go with that; hence, the majority of carbide users. I don't blame them, either.

Then I've seen comments like, "I tried HSS and it didn't work for me so I went back to carbide". This leads us to believe that any HSS tool will work the same as any other HSS tool. As we know, nothing could be farther from the truth. A good HSS tool is good because the geometry is right, not because of the material the tool is made from.

I sound like a broken record but the best lathe tool to use is the one you need. For some things, carbide is definitely the best choice. For other things, HSS is better. You have to know how to use both and must know how to grind a good HSS tool in order to have the choice.
 
I sound like a broken record but the best lathe tool to use is the one you need. For some things, carbide is definitely the best choice. For other things, HSS is better. You have to know how to use both and must know how to grind a good HSS tool in order to have the choice.

Mikey,

Would this be the place to elaborate on the appropriate uses for carbide and HSS respectively?

I've been studying up on HSS grinding because I have 10" atlas lathe and a 12" under repair and understood that carbide is best used on machines capable of exerting more force than these small Atlas types. Also the PO of my first lathe laid a bunch of HSS blanks on me. Subsequently I bought a lot of machine tools from a chap whose father and grandfather owned which included a bunch of ground tools. So I've been gearing up to grind my own by modifying a belt grinder (following your articles) as well as simply honing my old pre-ground tools and experimenting.

I also have a small insert tool holder with a handful of inserts that I sometimes use. It seems like understanding the vast array of inserts is almost as much work as grinding HSS. Not to mention the expense.

Maybe this has been discussed before in this voluminous thread, which I have read but maybe not retained.

Tim
 
For smaller machines, I think carbide is great for hard materials. I have some random stuff here that's hard enough to kill the edge on my HSS bits really quickly. Carbide will chew it up nicely. You can't just drop in carbide any more than you can drop in HSS. Carbide inserts have loads of types just like we have loads of grinds. And there are some things to watch for, like needing some depth of cut on carbide or it rubs. Where you can take a couple tenths off with sharp HSS tools.

When you are new and just starting to look at options though, it's easy to see pre-formed inserts and think you can just grab and go though. And you kind of can, but you will get better results if you know how to use them as they are designed.

For job shops where time is money, I get them using all carbide. Being able to break a tip and just drop a new insert in means more productivity and thus more profit. As a hobby guy, I'm ok having a couple HSS tools so I can swap if I manage to break a tip or dull one going too fast etc., then just grind them to spec later. Experience helps a lot, I break a lot less often now. :)

And you sometimes need a weird shape, like the grooving tool above. It is nice not to have to wait for shipping for them.
 
For smaller machines, I think carbide is great for hard materials. I have some random stuff here that's hard enough to kill the edge on my HSS bits really quickly. Carbide will chew it up nicely. You can't just drop in carbide any more than you can drop in HSS. Carbide inserts have loads of types just like we have loads of grinds. And there are some things to watch for, like needing some depth of cut on carbide or it rubs. Where you can take a couple tenths off with sharp HSS tools.

When you are new and just starting to look at options though, it's easy to see pre-formed inserts and think you can just grab and go though. And you kind of can, but you will get better results if you know how to use them as they are designed.

For job shops where time is money, I get them using all carbide. Being able to break a tip and just drop a new insert in means more productivity and thus more profit. As a hobby guy, I'm ok having a couple HSS tools so I can swap if I manage to break a tip or dull one going too fast etc., then just grind them to spec later. Experience helps a lot, I break a lot less often now. :)

And you sometimes need a weird shape, like the grooving tool above. It is nice not to have to wait for shipping for them.

An excellent response, Sir!
 
Would this be the place to elaborate on the appropriate uses for carbide and HSS respectively?

Morning, Tim. I'll just add on to ttabbal's response.

The first thing I wanted to point out is that your lathes were meant for HSS, not carbide. Unless you have a high speed motor on them, HSS would be the first choice because carbide needs speed to cut well. I know you're aware of this but some new guy following this might not.

In addition to speed, carbide also benefits from rigidity and power, something a small lathe just doesn't have. Given these limitations, it might seem that carbide won't work but it will; you just need to choose carefully. This essentially means you should stick with positive rake tooling and keep nose radii small; both of these things keep cutting forces lower. You should also try to buy finishing inserts; these have very little space between the cutting edge and the chip breaker, which also lowers cutting forces. Whenever possible, use inserts with ground edges that are sharp; again, this reduces cutting forces. This narrows the field but still leaves thousands of choices so let me boil it down for you a little.

I have tried what seems like a lot of carbide tool holders and insert types. It took a long time to figure out what I told you above. If I had to choose a single tool holder and insert designation today, I would definitely recommend the SCLCX tool holders. These tool holders take CCMT and CCGT positive rake inserts and hold them at a 5 degree cant that allows the tool to both face and turn with the tool shank held perpendicular to the work piece. I would choose the smaller tool holder when given the choice, purely because the available nose radii include smaller radii with smaller tools. For me and my 11" lathe, 3/8" tool holders work best and I can get nose radii down to 0.008", which allows me to make smaller cuts for improved accuracy.

Inserts abound for these tool holders but assuming you buy a 3/8" tool holder, I would get CCMT and CCGT 25.205 inserts (the SCLCX tool holder will accept both types of inserts) and only go with larger nose radii if you have to. When buying CCGT inserts, look for the AK grade of inserts. These have a sharp ground edge that is uncoated and polished so they are very sharp. CCGT inserts are usually used with aluminum but they will also cut most other materials and are more useful than many hobby guys realize.

The other thing to know is that inserts are meant to be with the tool holder perpendicular to the work. However, they often work better when we turn the tool holder to positions that allow different edges to cut; this especially helps with finishes. You should play with this to see what works for you. If you watch videos of a CNC lathe with live tooling, you will see that the insert changes position to suit the contours of the part being cut and this also works for us; we just have to understand which edge should be in play for a given need. Play with this when you can.

There is a lot more to using inserts than I can put in this response. The minimum and maximum depths of cuts, speed and power requirements, impact of nose radii on accuracy and so on would take a book, one I'm not qualified to write. I have opinions on this subject that I sort of put in my Boring Primer but even that is not an authoritative work. Maybe one of the other guys might want to give it a shot.

Okay, time for the bottom line: For most work on your lathes, using the common hobby guy materials, I would try HSS first. If the tool does not cut well or dulls quickly, change to carbide and use as much speed as the diameter of the part allows. I rarely cut unknown metals so for me, 90% of my work is done with HSS. I can rough without problems and take very fine cuts to come in on size so HSS works best for me. I switch to carbide when cutting harder materials like stainless or medium carbon steels or tool steels. At times, I will rough tool steels with carbide and finish them with HSS; O-1 in particular benefits from this approach and will achieve a mirror finish at high speeds with a sharp HSS tool.

You have to play with this stuff to sort it out for yourself and your machines. That's what makes tooling choices fun. I hope this helps but if you have specific questions, lay them out and we'll try to be more helpful.
 
I appreciate your responses and the digression into carbide inserts. A chap offering HSS blanks and endmills on CL generously turned me on to a SCLCR tool holder and some Kennametal CCMT inserts. They work good on stainless and I will use these as you suggest for roughing O-1 on an upcoming project.

What I find critical to grinding my own is repeatable tool rests and jigs, which is why the belt grinder treatise was so valuable to me. Folks that can hand grind have my respect, but I'll never get enough practice on a consistent basis to achieve, and more importantly, retain that skill level. Sometimes I get very little time to do much more than sniff around the shop (well the shop dog does the bulk of the sniffing).

Tim
 
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