down right disgusting

[Ray C]

you're dodging the question by using inflammatory rhetoric. If we're actually having a discussion here instead of this being a single viewpoint only echo box, it would be interesting to know your opinion.

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sure, but the suit isn't about the risks inherent in body contact sports as that's self-evident, it's about the fact that the NFL and its teams knew/ know about the risks and ways to avoid or minimise them, but rationally and consciously chose to do nothing. That is the central concept of any of these lawsuits and the key point that people choose to ignore when they read the headlines or hyperbole.

As for the saw suit, that's a tricky one as there aren't any mandated auto-stop safety requirements yet (although I'm sure that there are others) and the safety tech at the heart of the suit is from one supplier only, so comparisons to things like ABS or traction control in new cars don't work. Personally I think it's specious as the plaintiff presumably had a choice between different saws and chose one without the safety tech based on his own preferences i.e. it's a conscious choice on his part and not a lack of care on the manufacturers. Then again, I haven't read the full brief.

Ah yes, not only did the NFL and it's teams know of the dangers, the players did too. I recall reading many magazine articles in various sports magazines about football safety helmets for at least 20, possibly 30 years. I'm not even into football so if I know about it, certainly a professional player does too. If the players wanted different rules or safety equipment, they could have demanded it; yet, the chose to do what they wanted to and were driven by money. I'm sure some of the guys aspire to be good athletes but at the college level, things change and money is the motivator and athletics is just a means to an end. -And they were in control of the decision. In all my years in a ring or on the wrestling matt, we talked about concussions and various other medical issues/injuries every single day. There was two topics: How to be a better fighter -and how not to get injured. I was small time stuff compared to the pro guys but I'll bet dollars to donuts their side-line conversations cover the same topics.

Again, maybe some of the very earliest NFL guys didn't know but any/everyone past the mid 1980's did. I don't see how any of the later crowd could be joining the lawsuits.

Getting back to the issue of machines, I am fully aware of the dangers of lathes, mills, saws etc and if someone invents a device that stops a blade, fine, so be it... I should have the option to buy that feature or not -and not get it rammed down my throat because the industry was pressured into installing them on every machine -or worse yet, by government mandate. Why? quite simple. Because I choose what I want, what I do, what I need and don't need -and I decide what risks are tolerable for me. Some devices are inherently dangerous and this is why we stress safety and proper procedure. When driving on public roads, you need to have a driver's license or motorcycle operator's license -because while on public roads, society wants some proof that you have the skill to operate the vehicle. On your own property, anyone can drive any vehicle they want, any way they want -and do it at their own risk. In my shop, I want to use any equipment I want, any way I want to.

Ray

 

[Marco Bernardini]

In my shop, I want to use any equipment I want, any way I want to.

I removed the switch on the belt guard of my drill press because with the second lower speed the belt sometimes touched it.
But I know I must not open the guard while the drill is running and, if sometimes I left the cover open because I've to make things requiring different speeds, I know I must not place my fingers between the belt and the pulleys (my hair tuft Elvis like was gone years before I bought the drill press, so that's not a problem).
When I worked in buildings, I usually persuaded the workers to use all safety measures not for their own good, but to prevent me some years of jail if they kill themselves. Since they are mostly friendly, they understood my problem and wear hard hats and so, at least when I was in the yard.
Once I had to measure the facade of of one of the tallest (and ugliest) buildings of the province, 11 floors, with the guy who re-painted parts of it and had an issue with the owners.
To give you an idea it's this one:

There was a scaffold all around the building. I used the stairs of the scaffold, while the painter climbed the outside of the scaffold using the hinges as support while wearing beach flip-flops.
I told him: «You can make mountaineering!» (many kgs ago I made mountaineering, too).
And he replied: «Are you crazy? Mountaineering is dangerous!!!»

 

[TOOLMASTER]

being aware and being naive are two different things...most fall under naive then whine about it later....

 

[mattthemuppet2]

If the players wanted different rules or safety equipment, they could have demanded it

how? ..

 

[Ray C]

how? ..

The same way they demand a couple million bucks a year more in salary....

 

[TOOLMASTER]

I wouldn't give them a nickel..

 

[Jamespvill]

I knew we took a wrong turn somewhere when they started stamping product warnings on gun barrels.
Ray

The real problem is that they were too broad and didn't indicate the dangerous end, thats where most of the issues come from. :lmao:

 

[Jamespvill]

The football issues is something that I've loved to debate about for years. Penn and Teller Bull****! did an episode on it years ago, it was pretty dang informative.

A large portion of the problem starts at middle school and high school football in my opinion. I graduated last year and even then there was hardly any mention of concussions and bodily harm even though it's talked about constantly in pro ball. I remember seeing one of the permission slips for middle school football and there wasn't any mention at all of injuries being possible. Instead it was all about the bragging rights and glory. When it gets to NFL it doesn't change much; bragging rights and money.


Oh how low the bar has fallen, and I don't think even with all the combined minds of Hobby Machinist that we can build a contraption to lift it to it's previous height.

It might just be time to amass a massive collection of raw stock, baked beans, and those delicious vanilla wafer snacks then become a recluse, All the worlds BS might just drive me crazy otherwise. :nuts:

 

[Ray C]

The football issues is something that I've loved to debate about for years. Penn and Teller Bull****! did an episode on it years ago, it was pretty dang informative.

A large portion of the problem starts at middle school and high school football in my opinion. I graduated last year and even then there was hardly any mention of concussions and bodily harm even though it's talked about constantly in pro ball. I remember seeing one of the permission slips for middle school football and there wasn't any mention at all of injuries being possible. Instead it was all about the bragging rights and glory. When it gets to NFL it doesn't change much; bragging rights and money.


Oh how low the bar has fallen, and I don't think even with all the combined minds of Hobby Machinist that we can build a contraption to lift it to it's previous height.

It might just be time to amass a massive collection of raw stock, baked beans, and those delicious vanilla wafer snacks then become a recluse, All the worlds BS might just drive me crazy otherwise. :nuts:

Must be a regional kind of issue then... One of my sons was a pretty good wrestler and when he signed-up every year, the information sheets were loaded with all kinds of hazard/health information with concussion being on top of the list. The liability waivers were 15 pages long. If you sign-up for a gym around here, it's the same story. I was a private trainer (for secondary protection) and also a Krav Maga instructor. The Krav waivers were 20 pages long and it started-out with a list of the most common injuries. My neighbor's kid was into Lacrosse -same deal.

Having had my fair share of bumps, bruises, fractures, and trips to the doctor to address said issues, the first question out of every doctor's mouth was related to concussion, getting knocked-out etc... If the local orthopedic doctors are asking these questions, then no doubt, everyone involved in the advanced levels are aware of the issues too. When I visited my kid's high school some years ago, there were signs up in the locker rooms and gym areas describing the symptoms of concussion and other common gym injuries...

Wish I could find it but, I recall a Sports Illustrated magazine from probably 15 years ago whereby, "researchers" were studying how woodpecker birds seemed to be immune to concussion and were analyzing their skulls hoping to define a better football helmet. The issue is front-and-center in every athletic venue I'm aware of.

Ray

 

[dan12]

As far as football, wrestling or any other intense sport at the high-school or elementary school level, I think there is way too much emphasis on competition and not enough on skill development. At the early phases, such sports are supposed to be an outlet for kids to burn-off energy, build some muscle and skill -and socialize. Also, yes indeed, the coach and school administrators should be held responsible for pushing the team or individuals too hard. In the last two decades, TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) is a well known issue -and there's no coach in this country who doesn't know about it.

Long before anyone knew what MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) was, I was in the thick of it back in the mid 80's. Everyone (that I knew of and worked with) trained with safety in mind. Did we push the envelope? Sure. Did we cross the line? No. Still though, there were always a few guys who wanted to go all the way and the allure of money and product endorsements etc pulled them in. We all knew what concussions do to you long term as we saw the effects on boxers over the last half-century. We watched old videos of boxers, BJJ and wrestlers. We studied their moves over and over and we followed their careers for years. -And we saw them get dulled, dumber and more crippled as the years passed. -Yet some people conveniently forget all that when money talks.

Maybe some of the early NFL players didn't think about concussions but, ANYONE involved in any level of sports since the late 80's knows about it and talks about it every day. By the time you get into college or pro leagues, I think you're on you're own. The people who get into this at the advanced levels know what they're doing and they know the risks. -No doubt about it and I'm speaking from first-hand experience.

Ray

same for "roids"
we all know the problems
severall MMA guys been caught, and they know better by now
I'm always stunned they do it anyway,thinking "not me" " I won't have same problems others had":nuts: