Do Hobby Machinists prefer small CNC or small Manual machines at home?

[ps15toolroom]

as an aside i used to wonder why milling/cnc machines arent designed from hollow steel, filled by the end user with sand to increase mass and dampening. that would be an easy design win i thought. then i realized most of the basic castings are all the same, readily available, and ancient; and i was envisioning a much more costly welded construction. but i still think its a good idea. surely there is some outfit somewhere using automated machines to make small scale welded tube steel constructions to order? like the zillion places offering one-off cnc services. but i haven't seen it

Many machine structures are "hollow", that is to say they have open areas. Think of machine structures as "webbing" which connects and wraps around all the other parts. I can't think of any machines at are solid chunks. Companies have experimented with filling the structures with proprietary mineral castings (know to hobby people as epoxy-granite) and I think some have used concrete compounds. Hardinge has something called "harcrete" and DMG Mori has some filled in machine tool structures as well.

 

[ps15toolroom]

@ps15toolroom

So, your competition in this space is Tormach. Have you evaluated their offerings? Just curious how what you’re proposing matches up to them?

John

Who says I'm planning anything?

 

[OldCarGuy]

What's the meaning of “Hobby Machinist?” Some say it depends on the definition of what is,, is. In my humble opinion if you make money with the shop, it no longer a hobby, rather it's a business. And according to the IRS, a business actively tries to earn a profit while a hobby does not. Simple enough...

That places my home machine shop in the hobby category. And after sixty-five years of collecting and upgrading tools and machines. I have a shop filled with twelve major pieces of equipment that rivals many small shops. Mostly manual machines except for one CNC machine. My biggest is is a 5,000 pound 2021 Cleveland AV-35 Bed Type three-axis CNC mill. It sits across the isle from my 1951 Kearney Trecker Rotary Head Mill that weights 4,500 pounds. Along with my 4,000 pound 1942 G&E Shaper. Size and weight are not an issue for me. I had the foresight to build and install a 4,000 pound capacity bridge crane covering my 30' by 50' workshop. Along with the ingenuity to move heavy equipment. My main shop has a dedicated 240 Volt 200 Amp single phase load center. And a total of 30 HP RFC in three separate units. Power is never an issue and can run two, three, or four machines at once.

So I have all these great toys. But I consider the CNC machine my biggest plaything. Yes it's marvelous to see it running. The capabilities are endless. However it takes me more time to set it up. Than to simply make a part on my manual machines. More time is spent programming than actual machine run time for any single part. On a manual machine I'll be making chips right out of the gate... It's a far different story for making multiple parts.

My advice for a home hobbyist is stick with manual machines first. If you care to go the CNC route,, Cranking handles is fundamentally important to run a CNC version if you go that route.

 

[twhite]

What's the meaning of “Hobby Machinist?” Some say it depends on the definition of what is,, is. In my humble opinion if you make money with the shop, it no longer a hobby, rather it's a business. And according to the IRS, a business actively tries to earn a profit while a hobby does not. Simple enough...

That places my home machine shop in the hobby category. And after sixty years of collecting and upgrading tools and machines. I have a shop filled with twelve major pieces of equipment that rivals many small shops. Mostly manual machines except for one CNC machine. My biggest is is a 5,000 pound 2021 Cleveland AV-35 Bed Type three-axis CNC mill. It sits across the isle from my 1951 Kearney Trecker Rotary Head Mill that weights 4,500 pounds. Along with my 4,000 pound 1942 G&E Shaper. Size and weight are not anissue for me. I had the foresight to build and install a 4,000 pound capacity bridge crane covering my 30' by 50' workshop. Along with the ingenuity to move heavy equipment. My main shop has a dedicated 240 Volt 200 Amp single phase load center. And a total of 30 HP RFC in three separate units. Power is never an issue and can run two, three, or four machines at once.

So I have all these great toys. But I consider the CNC machine my biggest plaything. Yes it's marvelous to see it running. The capabilities are endless. However it takes me more time to set it up. Than to simply make a part on my manual machines. More time is spent programming than actual machine run time for any single part. On a manual machine I'll be making chips right out of the gate... It's a far different story for making multiple parts.

My advice for a home hobbyist is stick with manual machines first. If you care to go the CNC route,, Cranking handles is fundamentally important to run a CNC version if you go that route.

Your hobby shop is way nicer than any shop I have ever worked in 45 years machining.

I say congrats to you that you were able to build up such a beautiful shop. May you have many more years of enjoyment.


Cutting oil is my blood.

 

[ShagDog]

As a hobbyist with no interest in making anything to sell, I have no use or desire for a CNC lathe or mill. On the other hand, if there were a high quality small (say 8x to 10x, around 400 lbs.) USA made lathe, I would be extremely interested.

 

[Ischgl99]

I have a manual mill and lathe and enjoy using them, but setting up for some operations is time consuming, and can require accessories that could be avoided with CNC, especially the rotary table. I bought manual instead of CNC because of the cost, if I had the funds, I probably would have at least one CNC machine. I started doing some side business in my shop, so a CNC mill would be real nice right now. A new customer sent over prints for parts that are complicated to do on a manual mill, but would be much easier on CNC. The quantity was 12 for each of the 4 parts, so I had to pass since it just wouldn’t be practical to do that quantity with what I have on those parts.

My initial thought is many people in the machining hobby would not have the funds for a capable CNC machine, but in reality even some of the new ones are not any more expensive than a Harley or a new boat. It comes down to what you want to spend your money on. And the room issue can’t be overlooked. My shop is in my basement, so I would need something that could get through an outside access stairway, but taking it apart to fit is fine. I took over the basement, my wife would string me up if I also took over the garage. An ideal CNC lathe for me would be something in the 10-12” swing with 24” between centers, and a 1.5”+ spindle bore. I would prefer something in the 1500lb range rather than the manual 12”x24” design that is more like 800lb. If I had my shop in the garage or a separate building, then weight would not be a concern and I would get an industrial size machine.

 

[OldCarGuy]

You are spot on about a CNC would be a life saver for most production quantities. Even as low as four pieces. There there are tricks to quickly set up rotary tables. Or consider purchasing a rotary cross slide table. You'd be amazed at what that can do...

Advance 13" Cross Slide Rotary Table

My hobby shops involves restoring century old antique cars. And there's a constant need for one off.. Last year I sold my 12” Vertical-Horizontal Rotary Table to go alone with a Bridgeport I was selling. Plus I own a CNC Mill and a Rotary Head Mill. Last week I just picked up an 8” Phase II rotary table.. Why would I do that? Because it gives me another option to do a speedy operation. Anyhow there is an abundant supply of auxiliary equipment because production shops are disposing of them because of CNC.

 

[Ischgl99]

I saw one of those cross slide rotary tables years ago and liked the versatility. If I find one at a good price, I will pick it up and give it a try. I have been scouring the auctions in my area, but a lot of things have been going for insane prices. A set of Vermont Gage pin gages went for new price, not including the buyers premium…

My rotary table is horizontal only, I have been thinking about getting a horizontal/vertical model. I got my table, a 9” Troyke, from a junk yard and paid $0.10/lb for it, so even if I throw it in the trash, it has paid for itself on the first job I did with it.

 

[RJSakowski]

I acquired a CNC mill because it enabled me to do work that was impossible otherwise. I bought my Tormach 770 in 2011 with a specific task in mind. Our remodeled kitchen had cabinets with curved faces, two of which were elliptical. The undercabinet LED lighting system was designed to fit directly behind the facing so it would be hidden by the overhang. To complicate matters the lighting would actually be an offset from the elliptical path so that it was no longer an ellipse. I could create the actual curve in SolidWorks which could be imported into a CAM program to create the tooling path in G code. which could be then run on my CNC mill. I had considered a cross slide rotary table where I could make a reasonable approximation of the tool path using a series of intersecting tangent curves. It would have been a lot more work and more prone to potential errors and had I known of the existence of a cross slide rotary table, I might have gone that route. In hindsight, I'm glad that I didn't.

I like manual machining and have a manual mill as well as two manual lathes. I use my CNC mill manually far more than in automated mode. The reason is simple. It takes less time to machine something manually than it does. But aside from that, I like the visceral feedback that I get from turning the cranks. It's the main reason that I don't have a CNC lathe. True, a CNC lathe would allow me to easily turn balls, cut tapered threads and create all kinds of oddball shapes, including eccentric turnings but if I really am in need, I can always set up my CNC mill as a vertical CNC lathe.

When I am considering a new machine I ask myself, "what will this machine enable me to do that I couldn't do otherwise"? Then I consider cost, frequency of use, space requirements, etc. Then I try to make an informed decision.

 

[matthewsx]

Who says I'm planning anything?

Sorry if I misinterpreted your posts, you’ll have to admit they do sound like market research.

Please do tell your thoughts on Tormach if you’re willing.

John