Chinese Machine Quality Ranking

[Dabbler]

I hear the arguments about "you get what you pay for" in regards to QA/QC

What I meant to say was quite the opposite: you cannot get good quality (from offshore) unless you pay for it. But paying a lot never guarantees quality.

There is a rush to the bottom, by people who want to capture every sale, and don't care about after sales support.

Vendors like Modern Tool and Precision Matthews pay for extra QC at the factory, and check on receiving, to ensure after sales problems are minimized. (It is always cheaper to resolve problems as early in the process as possible)

For tooling, I have quite a lot of Taiwanese tooling (dividing head, rotary table, etc) some North American tooling (magnetic sin plates, rotary table, gauge blocks) and a lot of Chinese sourced tooling (123 blocks, gauge blocks, angle blocks, some calipers) and by careful purchasing you can get journeyman quality and better.

One real problem is internet buying. There is so little accountability, and reputation has so little value, that the unscrupulous will sell junk or broken stuff to anyone with money. I try to buy in person where possible, which is why I buy used a lot. I buy from the internet only where I can afford to get *that thing* as unusable.

I feel you can trust Matt (Precision Matthews, @qualitymachinetools) to be quite scrupulous. In the larger market he has built a reputation of integrity. In this forum he has shown that he tries his best to resolve anything that comes up. After sales support does cost - and that cost has to be paid by the buyer (nothing is free in life) - if a PM machine costs a little more, you know why.

 

[Huub Buis]

It seems the only way PM succeeds where the others fail, is by having a second round of QA/QC upon arrival.

If you buy a Chinese machine, take it out of the box, take it apart and rebuild it, it will become a very expensive machine and difficult to sell. The only economically way is to order a decent machine.
HBM sales told me that there is no market for a decent and more expensive Chinese machine. That is probably true otherwise some one would sell these machines. It also means that the average buyer of Chines machines is a happy buyer.

 

[Aaron_W]

It mostly comes down to quality control and customer service, although some companies do spec similar machines differently.

Precision Matthews and Little Machine Shop definitely seem to be at the upper end, both in spec-ing their machines to be better, as well as having good quality control and customer service.

Waebco seems to get good reviews, Chinese made, but spec'd better with German quality control. Seems to be mostly a brand found in Europe.

I'd put Grizzly and Harbor Freight at the next tier, as their machines are generally spec'd more the same as the generic Chinese machines, QC is hit or miss but they do have solid customer service (HF, not so great online, but good if you have a store close by). It might take some back and forth perhaps even swapping out a dud machine, but once you get a decent example they are decent. Buying used however I'd put Grizzly much higher as they have good parts support, HF is more bring it back and we will give you another one, which isn't so helpful with a used machine.

Jet is at a similar tier but for different reasons. Jet tends to spec better quality, but I understand their customer service is kind of meh.

HF, Grizzly and Jet do have some Taiwan made tools, PM does not have a lock on that.

Enco used to be pretty good, I have a 1993 Enco lathe and the fit and finish is not bad. Enco still exists in theory, but now just as a brand under MSC and I have no idea how they compare as I rarely run across anybody who has a new Enco machine. Their smaller machines do not compete well pricewise being higher than Grizzly or HF. I have gone through Grizzly for parts support on my Enco as Grizzly parts support is just so painless.


Pretty much everybody else seems to be buyer beware. I've run across people that have had good luck with Vevor (about the cheapest brand out there), but it seems to be exactly that, luck. Lots of people report very poor experiences, but when you can get a Vevor 7x12" for $400 and a Grizzly or Harbor Freight 7x12" costs $800, it should not be a surprise that the quality is likely less. Bolton seems to be a horror show based on John's experience.


Which lathe does matter, specs and quality control in general seems to improve as the prices increase. I hear a lot fewer complaints on the 12x36, 9x20s etc than with the 7x12" lathes which again should not be a surprise as they are basically the bottom tier machines.


Taiwan made tools are in a different class from China. Higher end Chinese machines can likely compete with Taiwan, but I'm not aware of any cheap Taiwan tools that compare with cheap Chinese tools. Not lathes but HF has some relatively inexpensive Taiwan made hand tools which are pretty good quality.

Sieg Machines are very very good in quality and finish, They from Taiwan. https://www.siegind.com/

Sieg is not Taiwanese, they are based in Shanghai, China.

 

[projectnut]

There seems to be some fascination about buying new offshore machinery. Looking at the number of threads about the problems and upgrades needed it seems not many come straight from the factory ready to produce quality end products. The worst seem to be the bandsaws. Nearly everyone who has purchased one seems to have needed to make "improvements". There was a time when purchasing new generally meant you would have a workable machine out of the box that would last many years beyond the warranty with few repairs given recommended maintenance procedures were performed at timely intervals. That's not necessarily true with the quality of the most of machinery produced offshore.

It seems in many cases used American or European equipment would be a better buy. I've been purchasing equipment for my shop since the 1980's. Almost all of it is American or European and has been purchased used from industrial or commercial shops. None of these machines have needed expensive and time consuming "repairs and upgrades" before being put to work.

In the 20+ years I've had the Bridgeport mill it's needed less than $200.00 in repair parts. That being said I have added a DRO and X axis power feed. Both were matters of convenience. The machine came with both metric and imperial dials. I could work in either world but the addition of the DRO and power feed greatly improved speed and is far easier on the old eyes.

In the saw department (Startrite H175 bandsaw, Racine 66W2 power hacksaw, Rockwell 10" vertical bandsaw, Black & Decker 14" commercial chop saw) all except the vertical bandsaw were purchased used. Most were 20 to 60 years old when purchased. So far, the only one that's needed any repairs is the Startrite bandsaw. At nearly 35 years old it finally needed a new grease seal at the band wheel gear box, and the coolant pump cleaned and resealed. The total cost was less than $50.00.

With the experiences I've had with used American and European machines I would definitely consider them again before purchasing new "offshore" built machines.

 

[mmcmdl]

/\/\/\/\ . I'm with the nut . Nothing off shore here . A brand new PM 12-36 showed up at work lately in the R&D department so I had to check it out . The only thing I could compare it to was our 13" Colchesters . If I had to pay the same price for either , you know which one's I would haul home .

 

[ericc]

There seems to be some fascination about buying new offshore machinery. Looking at the number of threads about the problems and upgrades needed it seems not ...

With the experiences I've had with used American and European machines I would definitely consider them again before purchasing new "offshore" built machines.

I have had better luck with older western made machines, but it hasn't been smooth sailing. My friend just got an old Bridgeport. These things can be really troublesome. There is a well-known machinist named John Stevenson or something like that who posts often on this topic, but I don't think he's on the site. Anyway, I came over to help my friend out, and it seems that he had a grinding sound coming from his vari-speed drive. The lower motor sheave was out. It had eaten through the bushing. No problem, get another one. Problem: there is a supply chain problem. Fast forward several months, and a box arrives with the $250 part. Everybody is super excited, and it looks like the part doesn't slip on. After much head scratching, it appears that the key slot is too narrow for the part. Wrong part, right? no wrong! The metal has grown around the slot since the shaft was forged down by the wobbling sheave. Even if you recut the slot, the sheave bushing will be loose in places. TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE design decision! Vari-speed drives should not integrate the motor shaft!!! Anyway, I've seen my share of China sourced machines which have taken up valuable floor space for months for various reasons: mysterious failure that repairmen cannot find, no parts, warranty service declined, extremely poor quality with parts that never quite worked, etc. But, I've seen my share of sorry old American machines. Stacks and stacks of them.

 

[Boswell]

I guess I am the lucky exception. I have not had to do any re-work on my Grizzly or PM machines. Just buy and use.

 

[Dabbler]

@projectnut @mmcmdl I would readily give a part from the right side of my anatomy for a USA made rolling bandsaw or a Do-All. But I have a Chinese made VFD 18" bandsaw that has performed far better than my General wood/metal 14" bandsaw. Offshore quality can be had - for a price. Yeah, I'd love getting the old iron. but frankly I don't need it with this offshore beauty.

I'm trying to say that no ALL offshore is bad, and not all N American products are the best.

-- I'd trade all 4 of my mills for Deckel FP1 or FP2 with the accessories. No mill made in the world can beat it. (for the work I do)

So every case is unique. If you buy cheap, expect cheap. If you want the best - it takes research and money.

 

[Beckerkumm]

There is a learning curve to buyer new or used intelligently, or even slightly less stupid. Neither metal or wood working is a cheap hobby so it makes some sense to understand machinery when buying. I am a mediocre machinist on my best day but I am always surprised at how little some machinists know about mechanics. I've never seen machines unnecessarily abused and given such half assed repairs as my metalworking machines. Whether you go new or used, it is worthwhile to compare how machines of a given size were made in the past and today. Some understanding of the differences will help with whatever decision makes sense for you now. Dave

 

[great white]

I guess I am the lucky exception. I have not had to do any re-work on my Grizzly or PM machines. Just buy and use.

Me too I guess. My Busy Bee CX-600 (ie: grizzly g0704) has been flawless so far. I did give it a good going through when it arrived, but didn't have to do anything more than a clean, adjust and lubricate.

My lathe is an old TH42 though. Needed little in the way of "fixes", but I did upgrade to a Baldor DC motor and then the obligatory tooling and assorted attachments.