Chinese Machine Quality Ranking

[Winegrower]

I have spent a lot of my career specifying and buying from China and Taiwan, I've been both places numerous times. The thing is, they just make stuff. The workers really have no idea what it is, how it works, what's critical and what isn't. They listen to feedback and try to correct, but like US companies, people forget. Good companies work hard to specify and have the manufacturer meet various requirements. Weak companies just drop ship the product. Even good companies get surprised from time to time, since the workers are skilled at doing things fast and apparently acceptable, to them, and things get missed.

Chinese companies can make junk, US companies can make junk. Similarly for exceptional quality products. I just purchased a 100KV supply from China that was custom made to my specifications, took about a month to get, and was less than half of a US standard product...no manufacturers of which would even talk to me or return calls. Literally. It's made beautifully.

So Asia bashing doesn't make much sense...nobody is forcing us to buy Harbor Freight. A Sharp mill or lathe would be at the higher quality end, along with price. But realistically and practically, used Taiwanese lathes, like the Takisawa, and my clone Bridgeport are just fine machines.

 

[pontiac428]

List of Chinese machine tool brands, ranked in order of quality.

1. The manufacturing prowess of the People's Republic.

End of list.

Different paint colors available on request.

 

[ErichKeane]

I have spent a lot of my career specifying and buying from China and Taiwan, I've been both places numerous times. The thing is, they just make stuff. The workers really have no idea what it is, how it works, what's critical and what isn't. They listen to feedback and try to correct, but like US companies, people forget. Good companies work hard to specify and have the manufacturer meet various requirements. Weak companies just drop ship the product. Even good companies get surprised from time to time, since the workers are skilled at doing things fast and apparently acceptable, to them, and things get missed.

Chinese companies can make junk, US companies can make junk. Similarly for exceptional quality products. I just purchased a 100KV supply from China that was custom made to my specifications, took about a month to get, and was less than half of a US standard product...no manufacturers of which would even talk to me or return calls. Literally. It's made beautifully.

So Asia bashing doesn't make much sense...nobody is forcing us to buy Harbor Freight. A Sharp mill or lathe would be at the higher quality end, along with price. But realistically and practically, used Taiwanese lathes, like the Takisawa, and my clone Bridgeport are just fine machines.

I think it really comes down, in all cases, to QA. When you compete primarily on price (read: you are trying to be the cheapest!), you end up cutting 'non-essentials', of which, QA is one of the tops. After QA goes, there is no-one around to tell you not to cut quality in other parts of production. Eventually, you cut so much, you're making junk.

Asian imports are typically imported to get a better price, and you get a race to the bottom, with some companies not even bothering with basic QA, so you get absolute trash.

The manufacturing company knows that some of their 'colors' need to be higher quality, else they get rejected, so those get the proper attention. They know when they paint it sickly-blue, they don't have to hit tolerances, and can get away with anything. When they paint it grizzly-green or lighter-blue, they aren't going to get paid unless they ship higher quality stuff. SO, they end up doing whatever the QA of the company they ship to will let them get away with.

IMO, Taiwan is higher quality not because it has better people or anything, but simply because if you're willing to spend the extra money to buy from Taiwan, you're going to be pickier. Same with US manufacturing, if you are willing to pay 'bridgeport money', you aren't going to accept a machine with ways fresh off a dull fly cutter, like you get out of some of the members of that list.

 

[MERLIncMan]

I have spent a lot of my career specifying and buying from China and Taiwan, I've been both places numerous times. The thing is, they just make stuff. The workers really have no idea what it is, how it works, what's critical and what isn't. They listen to feedback and try to correct, but like US companies, people forget. Good companies work hard to specify and have the manufacturer meet various requirements. Weak companies just drop ship the product. Even good companies get surprised from time to time, since the workers are skilled at doing things fast and apparently acceptable, to them, and things get missed.

Chinese companies can make junk, US companies can make junk. Similarly for exceptional quality products. I just purchased a 100KV supply from China that was custom made to my specifications, took about a month to get, and was less than half of a US standard product...no manufacturers of which would even talk to me or return calls. Literally. It's made beautifully.

So Asia bashing doesn't make much sense...nobody is forcing us to buy Harbor Freight. A Sharp mill or lathe would be at the higher quality end, along with price. But realistically and practically, used Taiwanese lathes, like the Takisawa, and my clone Bridgeport are just fine machines.

It is disturbing how many companies in the US simply ignore emails and phone calls.

I finally stopped trying with most.

 

[Huub Buis]

I have 3 HBM (Dutch seller of Chinese machines) machines. One small mill (BF16) and 2 lathes (HBM 300DC & BF290).
I installed the mill and have used it for about 8 years without problems. It is a small desktop mill you have to use with care.
I think the small lathe is 10+ years old and the bigger one 3+. Both the small and the bigger lathe needed a complete service to start with. Over the years I have done some work to improve the lathes. The saddle and tail stock have to be scraped/grinded/sandpapered to get it flat on the bed. I have adjusted the headstock of the small lathe to get it turn right. I have adjusted the tailstock on the bigger lathe to bore straight holes. Did some tweaks on both lathes to get a bit more rigidity and converted both lathes to CNC (still manual capable).
In the end, I have a lot of usefull machinery for the money and I have never regretted buying them. My time is free and I like doing this stuff. If I would use these machines for a living, than I would buy "higher quality machines" because every hour you spend on getting them right is an unproductive hour.
My next milling machine will also be a Chinese one.
What I realy not understand is why the manufacturer just doesn't spent 1 hour extra making these machines. It would improve the quality so much and I would gladly pay that little bit extra.

 

[MERLIncMan]

I have 3 HBM (Dutch seller of Chinese machines) machines. One small mill (BF16) and 2 lathes (HBM 300DC & BF290).
I installed the mill and have used it for about 8 years without problems. It is a small desktop mill you have to use with care.
I think the small lathe is 10+ years old and the bigger one 3+. Both the small and the bigger lathe needed a complete service to start with. Over the years I have done some work to improve the lathes. The saddle and tail stock have to be scraped/grinded/sandpapered to get it flat on the bed. I have adjusted the headstock of the small lathe to get it turn right. I have adjusted the tailstock on the bigger lathe to bore straight holes. Did some tweaks on both lathes to get a bit more rigidity and converted both lathes to CNC (still manual capable).
In the end, I have a lot of usefull machinery for the money and I have never regretted buying them. My time is free and I like doing this stuff. If I would use these machines for a living, than I would buy "higher quality machines" because every hour you spend on getting them right is an unproductive hour.
My next milling machine will also be a Chinese one.
What I realy not understand is why the manufacturer just doesn't spent 1 hour extra making these machines. It would improve the quality so much and I would gladly pay that little bit extra.

At the very least, get the sand out of the castings yes?

By the way - Merry Christmas everyone (unless it's not allowed to say that, in which case "enoyreve samtsirhC yrreM")

 

[strantor]

1. Precision Matthews (not really Chinese, more Taiwan sourced)
2. JET
3. Shop Fox
4. Grizzly (seem to put extra effort for providing proper manuals)
5. Baileigh
6. Enco
7. Klutch
8. WEN
9..Harbor Freight / Central Machinery
99. Vevor

I would get rid of the numbers and lump everything but PM (and maybe Grizzly) into one bullet at the bottom. I don't have any Jet in my own shop but a previous employer did, and it was all garbage. It's my understanding Jet used to be a respected name (hence why they bought it) but any more It's junk like the rest. I have a shop fox metal brake and it's junk. I don't see why either of those brands should have their own place in the list.

Here's my take on it:

As was already mentioned, when you order something from China, regardless of the color they paint it or the logo they slap on it, you should consider it a kit; some disassembly and reassembly required. Palletized potential. It can be a great tool if you take it apart, clean the sand out of the castings, finish the rough machining, replace the plastic toy gears with real ones, etc.

The reason why PM gets their own spot in the ranking is (as is my understanding from reading other posts for years, I don't actually own any PM machines so correct me if I'm wrong) - they do this step for you. When you buy from PM, someone in the USA has already gone through it, cleaned out the gritty marmalade, fixed the broken parts, given it a test drive, and a stamp of approval backed by a warranty.

Maybe Grizzly does the same thing, I don't know, their process is less transparent, but I do agree with you about the manuals. I don't own any Grizzly either, but reviews do seem to be better than for other imports.

If I were going to buy an import, based on what I've read and how much I have in my bank account at the moment, I would buy HF and fix it up. If I had more money, I would only buy PM. What I would not do is pay more than HF prices for anything except PM, expecting to receive something better than what I could get from HF. So Bolton, Shop Fox, Jet, Baileigh (especially Baileigh, my God the prices...), Enco, etc. can all kick rocks.

I hear the arguments about "you get what you pay for" in regards to QA/QC, and yes you can get good stuff from China, but I don't see a whole lot of evidence of that happening in this little corner of Chinese manufacturing that we are discussing. The idea that has built up in my head from years of reading forum posts about issues with the manufacturers mentioned so far in this thread is that apart from PM, the only difference between these machines is the color, the logo, and the (wildly variable) price tag. It seems the only way PM succeeds where the others fail, is by having a second round of QA/QC upon arrival.

 

[MERLIncMan]

I would get rid of the numbers and lump everything but PM (and maybe Grizzly) into one bullet at the bottom. I don't have any Jet in my own shop but a previous employer did, and it was all garbage. It's my understanding Jet used to be a respected name (hence why they bought it) but any more It's junk like the rest. I have a shop fox metal brake and it's junk. I don't see why either of those brands should have their own place in the list.

Here's my take on it:

As was already mentioned, when you order something from China, regardless of the color they paint it or the logo they slap on it, you should consider it a kit; some disassembly and reassembly required. Palletized potential. It can be a great tool if you take it apart, clean the sand out of the castings, finish the rough machining, replace the plastic toy gears with real ones, etc.

The reason why PM gets their own spot in the ranking is (as is my understanding from reading other posts for years, I don't actually own any PM machines so correct me if I'm wrong) - they do this step for you. When you buy from PM, someone in the USA has already gone through it, cleaned out the gritty marmalade, fixed the broken parts, given it a test drive, and a stamp of approval backed by a warranty.

Maybe Grizzly does the same thing, I don't know, their process is less transparent, but I do agree with you about the manuals. I don't own any Grizzly either, but reviews do seem to be better than for other imports.

If I were going to buy an import, based on what I've read and how much I have in my bank account at the moment, I would buy HF and fix it up. If I had more money, I would only buy PM. What I would not do is pay more than HF prices for anything except PM, expecting to receive something better than what I could get from HF. So Bolton, Shop Fox, Jet, Baileigh (especially Baileigh, my God the prices...), Enco, etc. can all kick rocks.

I hear the arguments about "you get what you pay for" in regards to QA/QC, and yes you can get good stuff from China, but I don't see a whole lot of evidence of that happening in this little corner of Chinese manufacturing that we are discussing. The idea that has built up in my head from years of reading forum posts about issues with the manufacturers mentioned so far in this thread is that apart from PM, the only difference between these machines is the color, the logo, and the (wildly variable) price tag. It seems the only way PM succeeds where the others fail, is by having a second round of QA/QC upon arrival.

You know that Matt actually lurks on the site here - or at least he did as of a year or two ago.
I'd be curious to get his (or an official PM) take on all of this discussion.

But, it is always important to know that the most accurate tool in the world is the one that I am too lazy or too scared to put an indicator on!

 

[projectnut]

Judging by the opinions of those who have purchased new Chinese machinery recently I see the same scenario practiced by predatory businesses throughout the ages. When first entering the sector the manufacturer(s) make machines of similar quality to the established brands and offer them at discount prices. As time goes on and they corner a fairly large segment of the market quality slips a little. The product is still fairly acceptable, but the price difference is enough that the once established brands are out of reach for most consumers. When they finally drive the competition out of business they no longer care much about the quality of their product because theirs is the only one available. The final step is to raise the prices comparable to what the high-end manufacturers were asking before they were forced out of the business. I'm thinking we are now in stage 3 of the 4-stage process.

It's hard to compete with companies that are government subsidized and pay their workers a fraction of what their competitors must pay. Also keep in mind that the safety and working conditions are far more tightly regulated in most of the countries they are competing against.

 

[matthewsx]

The main thing here, and the only one we can really do anything about in our little hobby machinist community is helping out new folks when they’re first starting out.

The ones who come here first and ask about various brands hopefully we can point them in the right direction. And/or set expectations so when they eventually do buy a “kit” machine they have some idea of what it will take to get it running well.

We can also give guidance to those who jumped in without looking for sharks and alligators by showing they aren’t the first, and that the mistakes they make are just part of the learning process.

The good part of the market being flooded is there should be plenty of these machines available used which can be picked up cheap and made functional with a little effort. This might be a worthy undertaking for those more experienced here, buy abandoned machines cheap, get them to a reasonable state, and sell them off to newbies at a decent price.

john