Beauty in The Beast: Webb 5BVK Barn Find/Conversion

[JimDawson]

Looks good. Try auto tuning in motor movement mode.

Now you can set up SV mode and figure out how your control console is going to connect.

 

[Charlieman22]

Thanks gents.
Was rushed a bit when I posted previously.
Need to celebrate the wins - as much as the misses!

Its been one week.
The machine is in my garage.
Clean.
Not lying on its side...
All the servos work.
And the spindle is up and running.
Not bad!

Jim - yeoman's effort!
Good input all around from the crowd has us in pretty good shape.
Was absolute smile creator when the spindle spun up!

Now I need to get a bit of tooling...
What exactly I need - is another question...
Don't need to buy it at once - would be nice to find some used stuff at the right price along the way.
But also open to buying a few key items new.

From prior discussion:

Before you jump in to the deep end, wait to get it home and then pull the drawbar out. Measure the threads - if it's a 5/8-11 then you have an NT40 taper. Also known as "NMTB40", "NST40" tapers.

It appears I have 5/8-11. So I think I am shopping for NT40/NMTB40/NST40 tooling.

It looks like the difference is a m16x2 thread for the ISO, vs. a 5/8 -11 thread for the CAT, BT, and NT.

Unless this supersedes that?

On the Collet end, there are different ER sizes, Size 40 which identies the outter dimensions of the collet would be a great place to start, then find a set of ER40 Collets that cover a reasonable range of tools that you can insert into them.

So a 40 size collet, and ER40 collets to match would be a solid star.

The WEBB in question does not have an automatic tool changer and I suspect it does not use pull studs.

On the other hand, the CAT, CV, V-Flange and similar end at the small end of the taper (intended for use with pull studs)

So I think not CAT,CV, or V - they have studs - and will not fit.

Have I got this right?

On my shopping list:
On my list:
- Vice - Kurt would be nice of course - but perhaps an offshore model would be more appropriate? How big a vice am I looking for?
- Clamping kit that will fit 16mm (5/8") table slots
- MT40 tool holder and a set of collets to hold drill bits and end mills (I think this is how you hold them?!)

Few specialty items I would really like to have:
A decent boring tool.
A decent face surfacing tool.
See pics below of some work I would like to do.

1. Run a surfacing tool over it to make the welded built up area match the surrounding gasket mating area
2. Cut a groove like this in the face as shown (this groove was cut with a boring tool prior to the welding)
3. Bore out the width of the entire circumference by an additional 1/16"

P.S. Jim - saw your note on autotune. Book says it won't work. It also notes: "set the proper acceleration and deceleration time (P0.11 and P0.12) according to motor inertia before performing auto tuning. Otherwise it may cause over-current and over voltage fault during auto tuning". Wonder if this is my issue.

 

[Charlieman22]

Short edit to above: as I have looked for ER collet tool holders - what I see is "NT" 40 with 16mm thread, and "CAT" 40 with 5/8-11.
Is it possible that the NT are all metric? Not sure I have a handle on it completely...

 

[JimDawson]

On my shopping list:
On my list:
- Vice - Kurt would be nice of course - but perhaps an offshore model would be more appropriate? How big a vice am I looking for?
- Clamping kit that will fit 16mm (5/8") table slots
- MT40 tool holder and a set of collets to hold drill bits and end mills (I think this is how you hold them?!)

Few specialty items I would really like to have:
A decent boring tool.
A decent face surfacing tool.

Time to go down the tooling rabbit hole
A 6 inch vice would be my choice for a machine that size. As you say, Kurt would be nice, but a quality import clone would be fine
You are going to want a drill chuck (Albrecth or Rohm are good in keyless chucks) for drilling, and an arbor adaptor for it. There are several different Jacobs tapers for chuck mounting, so you need to get the correct JT to #40 adaptor for the chuck you buy.

I would buy a few #40 to ER32 holders, maybe a half dozen or so. That way you can leave them set up with cutters in them. Buy one set of ER 32 collets, then a few single collets of the common sizes, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, and 5/8. I think we have at least 50 #40 tool holders here, in several different configurations, and just swap them in and out as needed. There are all kinds of #40 holders available, face mills included. This will get you started.

I would buy a 3 inch Criterion boring head. Example: https://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/cr3bohe1x8th.html and get a #40 shank for it. You can get a cheap set of carbide boring bars for it on Amazon, but plan on regrinding them to work properly

P.S. Jim - saw your note on autotune. Book says it won't work. It also notes: "set the proper acceleration and deceleration time (P0.11 and P0.12) according to motor inertia before performing auto tuning. Otherwise it may cause over-current and over voltage fault during auto tuning". Wonder if this is my issue.

Maybe, I guess try setting the accel/decel up or down and give it a try.

I have have that exact VFD running my air compressor, but I didn't auto tune mine. I just set the parameters to match the motor and pressed GO. I just set it up so a switch closure makes it run and am running it in V/F mode and at 60Hz. Since you are using the mechanical variable speed, the way you are set now might be fine.

 

[JimDawson]

Short edit to above: as I have looked for ER collet tool holders - what I see is "NT" 40 with 16mm thread, and "CAT" 40 with 5/8-11.
Is it possible that the NT are all metric? Not sure I have a handle on it completely...

Maybe it's time to pop that draw bar out and find out what you have, should just slide out the top, nothing holds it in. Either way doesn't really make a difference, you can always make a new draw bar. I think only the ISO holders are metric, but I'm pretty sure the NMTB are 5/8-11. But don't hold me to that. I know everything I have here is 5/8-11

m16x2 = 12.7 TPI vs 11 TPI for the 5/8

 

[extropic]

Excellent progress so far.

Regarding tool holders: we need to KNOW what thread is on the tool holder end of your drawbar.

I think you mentioned that the power drawbar actuator was removed (for transit?).

Is there a drawbar in the spindle?
If so, pull it out (should just lift out the top of the spindle?). Don't misplace any washers or thrust bearing at top of spindle.
What is the thread on the drawbar? 5/8-11? Great. If not 5/8-11, what is it (diameter and pitch?)? Clean and lubricate as required and replace drawbar into spindle.

 

[Charlieman22]

Apologies gents,
Got so excited about spindles turning - and the thought of actually making first chips - I forgot to post the pictures I shot of the draw bar.

Extropic - thanks.
Chuckle to think where I would be without this forum.
The draw bar pulled right out the top - without issue. There were no washers or bearings evident - and after I shot pics below - I slid it back in.
Can you clarify - where would any washer's reside? At the top - or down in the sleeve somewhere?
I used what I believe is a 5/8" -11 nut and it threaded on nicely.
I don't have an SAE thread gauge in that size - so I will double check with a trip to the hardware store - as this is a key issue.
(good recollection - yes - I pulled the power draw bar actuator off to roll it in to the garage with a little extra clearance).

Jim - good stuff - and at this point - I know its time to open up the pocket book a bit...
I think you've outlined it a solid plan - and then I can of course shop for the perfect barn find pot of gold to expand my collection down the road.
Few clarifications below (shocking... I know) and I'll throw it out to the group.

quality import clone

Any favorites? I am on board with a 6" model. Should it swivel?

I would buy a 3 inch Criterion boring head.

Sold.

for drilling, and an arbor adaptor for it. There are several different Jacobs tapers for chuck mounting, so you need to get the correct JT to #40 adaptor for the chuck you buy.

Headed to the internet again to see if I can understand enough of this sentence to ask the right follow up question...
Looks like the chucks come without the arbor - sometimes.
Are you saying there is an arbor that screws in to the chuck at one end (JT) - and has a 40 taper that fits up in to my spindle at the other? Is that what you mean by adapter - or is there an additional piece between my machine and the chuck?
Also - I see Shars caries an all in one type - but not of the brands you mentioned.
Will hue close to recommendations out of the gate - as I'm flying blind - but this looked interesting from a simplicity standpoint/
https://www.shars.com/5-8-cat40-integrated-precision-ball-bearing-keyless-drill-chuck

Below the draw bar.

 

[JimDawson]

Any favorites? I am on board with a 6" model. Should it swivel?

I think a swivel base is useless, I may have one around here somewhere but haven't seen it in years. I probably machine more with stuff clamped to the table rather than working in a vice, but there are times that a vice is the easiest way.

Headed to the internet again to see if I can understand enough of this sentence to ask the right follow up question...
Looks like the chucks come without the arbor - sometimes.
Are you saying there is an arbor that screws in to the chuck at one end (JT) - and has a 40 taper that fits up in to my spindle at the other? Is that what you mean by adapter - or is there an additional piece between my machine and the chuck?

The chuck has a mating tapered hole, just held together with friction. Something like this https://www.shars.com/40-nmtb-6jt-taper-adapter But there are a dozen or so different Jacobs tapers, so you must match the adaptor to the chuck.

Also - I see Shars caries an all in one type - but not of the brands you mentioned.
Will hue close to recommendations out of the gate - as I'm flying blind - but this looked interesting from a simplicity standpoint/
https://www.shars.com/5-8-cat40-integrated-precision-ball-bearing-keyless-drill-chuck

Shars seems to be out of stock on most of them. Check Amazon. MSC or McMaster are rather more expensive sources.

 

[Charlieman22]

This evening - package arrived with toys - haven't had a chance to open yet - but pictures and fun stuff to follow.
Extropic offered some tooling insights that were quite helpful (thanks!)
Will get back to shopping for some starter items soon.

In the mean time - the following crossed my mind.
When this machine operated as a CNC - it must have held the tables in position with the servos.
There are no locks - which makes sense - so this must be the means.

My question - Jim... - if you are listening.
Rather than make a mechanical set of locks - shouldn't I be able to recreate a "locked" position for the X and Y axis by powering the servos in some manner?

Let me know your thoughts - and if I am way out in left field on this one.

For a change.

 

[JimDawson]

My question - Jim... - if you are listening.
Rather than make a mechanical set of locks - shouldn't I be able to recreate a "locked" position for the X and Y axis by powering the servos in some manner?

Let me know your thoughts - and if I am way out in left field on this one.

Under most conditions when manually operating no table lock is required, as free as things move, there is still quite a bit of friction. For drilling and boring operations there is more than enough friction in the system to keep the table positioned. When I am milling, I normally just rest my hand on the opposing handwheel, this is more than enough to prevent movement in the opposing axis. A mechanical friction lock could be used on the handwheel that you want to hold. A small toggle clamp with a piece of belting on it would work, or you could go crazy and use a bicycle brake setup, or a small disk brake on the the motor or ball screw.

It would be possible to electrically ''lock'' an axis by powering up a drive. Enabling only the drive you want to lock would be a matter of sending the enable signal to only that drive. The would require that the balance was set very precisely so that the motor doesn't ''drift'' when no command voltage is present.