3 Jaw D1-4 Chuck

Supplement:

If you ever have to lap the taper, removing 1/10 of a thousandth of an inch produces around .010 axial movement (or thereabouts). So if the bluing shows good contact, you can start with very fine lapping film. DO NOT USE DIAMOND PASTE. This will turn the cast iron backing plate or chuck into a diamond lap, eventually ruining your spindle. If I have only .002 to move axially I start with 4000 grit. This is about the same a 3 micron lapping film.
 
Not to minimize what has gone before, but IMO that process description is the most valuable info in this thread.

If I decide to attempt getting that "perfect" fit, My process would be what @Dabbler has described.

To clarify, for people that don't have experience with lapping films, they are very tightly controlled precision abrasives. The "film" is usually a .003" flexible plastic backer sheet (or strip) with the Aluminum Oxide (A/O) or diamond abrasive grit "bonded" to one side. I say "bonded" but I have no idea how they actually attach such fine abrasive media. The various grits are graded in microns and run from at least 80 micron (course) down to fractional micron. I think I have some .3 micron, which is extremely fine and can achieve an almost mirror-like finish. As a point of reference, I find that 30 micron cuts about like 600 grit wet-or-dry silicon carbide on steel. I like to keep the abrasive action wet with light fluid (even WD-40) to help flush away the cuttings. Microabrasives will clog up fast on a dirty or dry workpiece. I was introduced to microabrasive films during my career and have accumulated a substantial collection over the years, at reasonable prices, from eBay. 3M is a primary manufacturer, but there are others. You can't go wrong with the 3M microabrasives.

Back to lapping the taper on the chuck: Microabrasives are available with Pressure Sensitive Adhesive (PSA) on the back of the film. I would use PSA film and cut it to a truncated cone flat layout form and apply it to the spindle taper on my lathe. I would size the film flat layout so it protruded about .06" beyond the front face of the spindle taper, so that it can reach to the bottom of the female taper. By cutting the flat layout into maybe 6 or 8 segments (rather than one contiguous piece) and leaving a small gap between each segment, the gaps will allow the cuttings a place to escape. By applying the film to the spindle taper, the lapping will not introduce any angular or out-of-round error.

Safety Concern: I've described using the lathe spindle as the master for the lapping process. However, how are you going to achieve the motion needed to actually lap? Here's an idea for your consideration. Ahead of time, prepare a 1" or larger steel bar (as long as practicable) with a center drill recess in one end and attach (weld?), perpendicular, a piece of stock of adequate length to prevent the bar from rotating (anti-rotation arm) on your lathe. Tighten one end of the bar into the chuck, put the chuck onto the spindle/microabrasive and engage a tailstock center into the tail end of the bar. The tailstock can provide the necessary axial force and the anti-rotation arm's purpose is obvious. Pad the contact area between the anti-rotation arm and the lathe to prevent damage. It would also be good if you could apply a vertical force to effectively make the chuck weightless.
The described process allows both of your hands to be away from the chuck while the chuck is in a position to be lapped. One hand can keep the WD-40 flowing to the lapping zone, and control the tailstock pressure while the other hand could control the rotation of the spindle (wrench in camlock?). Proceed with caution and check the fit frequently.

The reason I titled that paragraph "Safety Concern" is the obvious (to me) temptation to use the lathe spindle under power to achieve the lapping action. The slowest RPM on many lathes is way too fast for the process, IMO.

If you can make a separate lapping mandrel, the whole process would be a lot simpler with the chuck on the bench, in a vertical orientation. That way, gravity becomes a non-issue and the lathe spindle is free for test fitting without having to remove the lapping film. The trick is to make a lapping mandrel with the precisely correct taper. I would have made that last sentence all caps and bold, but . . .
 
By applying the film to the spindle taper, the lapping will not introduce any angular or out-of-round error.
I really like this idea! (If, of course, the spindle is very carefully cleaned afterward! And I'm sure you would)

Regarding 'Safety concern". I had imagined making a mandrel that fits in the chuck with a hole in it to accept a softer plastic insert with a 60 degree centre hole for a live centre. the plastic has to be soft enough to not overly bias the lapping. Then BY HAND rotating the spindle and using hand pressure to advance the cutting, only using the live centre for support, and to prevent the chuck from falling onto the ways. using this technique, care would have to be taken to not cut more on the bottom side than the upper side, so inverting the chuck every few strokes would be advised. Just a thought. I haven't ever done it this way.

The way I do it is to mount the chuck backwards in another chuck and hand lap using a wooden lap holding diamond film. When using diamond film care has to be taken to not use a lot of pressure, as it is easy to detach the diamond or AO grit from the film if you press too hard. I'm sure @extropic knows this already, but 3rd party readers might not know this. This is done on the slowest speed or by hand if the lathe doesn't slow down enough. I like about 40 RPM for this.

- using this method, it is imperitive to take a blueing 'print' of the surface regularly to ensdure the right fit on the taper.
 
Yes, I wasn't clear about how or why the chuck should be weightless when lapping on an actual lathe spindle. Unless one rotates the chuck, gravity will certainly result in an oblong taper in the chuck. I think a pulley, some cord and some raw stock (counterweights) would make that chuck weightless.

Anything can be screwed up, which is part of why I agreed with the OP that a gap is acceptable. Mine works fine for me, and I think I have the skills and materials to achieve the perfect fit. Mine is a Yuasa (Japan) chuck which I think is of reasonable quality. I don't have the calibrated/certified gages the determine if the spindle and/or the accessory are out of spec. If my spindle is oversize and I lap the chuck for perfect fit, I've screwed up the chuck.

A real world machinist may commonly need maximum capability out of the lathe/chuck and the perfect fit is the right thing to do. But, IMO, for a hobbyist like me, a good fit on the taper only has been sufficient. Add the complexities/subtleties of the lapping process to the equation and maybe it's better to just be aware of the potential of a perfect fit, be aware to look for signs of fretting on the tapers and consider whether the
'taper only' fit is good enough for now.
 
Yes, I wasn't clear about how or why the chuck should be weightless when lapping on an actual lathe spindle. Unless one rotates the chuck, gravity will certainly result in an oblong taper in the chuck. I think a pulley, some cord and some raw stock (counterweights) would make that chuck weightless.
I wasn't going after you about this - if it seemed so, not my intention, I'm sorry. I agree if the chuck is neutral for weight, the lapping will be more accurate. Even so, I'd still index the chuck 90 degrees, and lap for a while and repeat. This takes care of imperfections in the lapping film and its application as well.

Mine is a Yussa (Japan) chuck which I think is of reasonable quality.
Yuasa are good chucks (typo?) Usually Taiwanese lathes are careful about specs, and Yuasa are usually very clean and accurate.

If my spindle is oversize and I lap the chuck for perfect fit, I've screwed up the chuck.

Really if you fit your chucks, no harm done, regardless which is out of spec. even selling the chuck to someone else, it might have to be fitted, but no big deal. The easiest adjustment is an oversized taper (if the angle is right). this is easy to do: 2 thou skim cut, test fit. repeat until it has a 2 thou gap before tightening. then lap perpendicular to the jaws. Usually only minimal lapping is required. the taper can accommodate up to 4 thou gap before tightening the cams (just under 1 thou elastic deformation)

But, IMO, for a hobbyist like me, a good fit on the taper only has been sufficient.
Sure, it works. After many mounts/unmounts, I'd expect to see a 'scuff' about 4 thou from the axial surface. Even then, not the end of the world.

For me, I just couldn't use the lathe without fixing it. OCD perhaps?
 
@Dabbler
I didn't think you were "going after" me at all. I just thought my previous one liner about weightlessness could use a little more explanation.
I try to be as clear and unambiguous as I can, but long winded is not ideal either. Almost any written statement can be improved after a little rest and reflection.

I think we've covered the gap/no gap issue pretty well and I think we understand each other's point of view.
I think this thread will be an aid to future readers (if they chose to get through it).

All that's left is to post input from PB if they ever respond to me and Kitagawa if they get back to you.
 
If there should be a gap, where is the credible published documentation that a gap should exist? If that is a real thing, then the documentation should be abundant.

Frankly this is so basic that all the D1x lathes I have worked on (more than 30) across 6 tool and die shops, have all worked the way I described. You have one non-conforming lathe and that doesn't mean it is right for everyone else.

Use your lathe the way you see fit. You have that right. Don't tell beginners that it is the way all lathes should work.
This is so basic I see no reason for any manufacturer to document it.

PM is a good hobby grade machine, their use of a shim on a changeable chuck mount that may come on and off several times a day is a real head scratcher.

If there is any gap it should be at the taper, but there’s no reason for a gap at all.

I’d post pics of our D1-6 taper, but you might lose your lunch.
 
I got an email from P&B a couple days ago and they were asking what chuck I had. So I looked up the model numbers of a P&B 6" 3J plus the D1-4 mounting plate and replied to them.

Today I got a reply, which I consider to be precisely correct and credible information (along with the Hardinge document posted in reply #25).
Below is the text of the latest email and a image file with text.


Good Afternoon:

Please see the attached files:


Ideally you’d like to see the adapter plate seat on the taper and have zero clearance between both mounting surfaces. The top of the spindle nose should not be in contact with any portion of the adapter plate at all. Let us know if that is not the case with your chuck. Please feel free to mock up the “6in SETRITE WITH D1-4 ADAPTER” file to illustrate what issues you’re seeing.

Thank you,
Steven Kendra
Engineer
Pratt-Burnerd America


PRATT and BERNERD, 6in SETRITE WITH D1-4 ADAPTER.jpeg
 
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My summary, from all that has been discussed, is that zero gap is preferred, ideal, and should be the case.

However, no Standard document has yet surfaced which requires zero gap. If your spindle/chuck isn't being damaged and works well for you regardless of a gap, suit yourself.

If your D1 type mounted chuck has a gap and you want or need to achieve zero gap, some sort of shim is possible or lapping the chuck-side taper as required. Be certain that you know what you are doing before you attempt to lap your chuck to achieve zero gap. The zero gap state is necessary to achieve optimum performance from your lathe/chuck. By optimum performance I mean the ability to handle the greatest bending moment forces caused by workpiece mass and length , plus cutting forces.

Regardless, the mating tapers and planar surfaces must always be clean and free of high spots before mating.
 
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