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[How do I?] wire forward-reverse switch

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by tjb, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. Buffalo20

    Buffalo20 United States Active Member Active Member

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    I would be interested in your 3 wire for 230 vac comment, all 6 of the 230 vac, single phase motors, I have in the shop, need the full 4 wires. I tried it this afternoon, after I read the post, on 2 different motors, neither motor would run at all.
     
  2. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hopefully this sketch will help: 220motdrum1xzz.jpeg
    The drum switch closes both A, B for forward or reverse. Pin 4 on the drum switch = no connect
    Mark S.
    ps I cleaned it up a little
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  3. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    The start leg doesn't care which run winding it's in parallel with; it's the polarity (that little dot) of the start leg with respect to whichever run winding it's hanging across that sets the direction
    M
     
  4. Calixt0

    Calixt0 United States Active Member Active Member

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    so t5 is the start winding and by switching which which leg of the 220 it his switches direction
     
  5. Buffalo20

    Buffalo20 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks for the explanation. I guess if it's works that way, then do it. To me it seems more complicated than the way the manufacturer says to wire it. I've done it, with 4 wires to the motor off the drum switch, for 40+ yrs, to me its familiar and makes sense. But again, it interesting to see it done another way.
     
  6. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    I'd be interested to see if your way breaks both the power leads when the switch is in the center off position? May be a compromise there. Also, remember the start leg and the start winding are not the same thing exactly- the leg includes the start winding, the start cap, and the centrifugal switch all in series.
    For 115v, four wires are definitely required, both ends of the start leg HAVE to be swapped. But for 230v you have a choice of 3 or 4 wire hookups, I personally think the 3 wire one is simpler. I actually borrowed (stole? lol) the hookup from some other member's posts- somebody else had the idea long before me.
    Mark S.
     
  7. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    IIRC with some of the drum switches out there you have to use the 3 wire hookup, not enough contacts
    M
     
  8. Calixt0

    Calixt0 United States Active Member Active Member

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    What is the significance of breaking both power legs mark?
     
  9. Buffalo20

    Buffalo20 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Mark,

    Yes, I break both power legs. Trust me when I say, I'm not saying your wrong, its just not the way I was shown, on how to wire a single phase motor. We were taught to wire a single phase motor drum switch the same for 115 or 230 vac, exactly the same, the difference is in how the motor leads are connected. If the 3 wire method works for you thats all that matters. I've never had a direction switch for single phase, that didn't have the 6 contacts, I'm learning new stuff, everyday.
     
  10. Calixt0

    Calixt0 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Buffalo,
    Can you give me an example of the way your talking about with my motor ?
     
  11. Buffalo20

    Buffalo20 United States Active Member Active Member

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    again the red handle on top, left side 1, 3, and 5, right side 2, 4, and 6

    handle
    1 - 2
    3 - 4
    5 - 6

    230 vac line power goes switch #2 and #6
    switch #1 goes to motor P1
    switch #5 goes to motor # 4
    switch #4 goes to motor #5
    switch #3 goes to motor #8
    motor P2 is taped off
    motor #2 and #3 are connected together.

    if rotation is not correct, shut power off and switch motor wires to
    switch #3 to motor #5
    switch #4 to motor #8
     
  12. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Buffalo: your connection for 230v is overlooking the fact that the factory intended the start leg to only see 115v. If you look at Calixt0's motor nameplate you will
    see that the start leg is supposed to be connected across only one of the series connected run windings. I've seen this on most dual voltage single phase motors. Your connection puts the start leg across the full 230v.
    Yes the motor may start and run but it puts twice the applied voltage on the start cap and more stress on the start switch. Not a big deal if the cap is rated 330 v or higher but I've seen OEM caps that were only 165 vac and even some that were 125 vac
    Mark S.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  13. Buffalo20

    Buffalo20 United States Active Member Active Member

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    I don't know Mark, that's how Baldor and Marathon, showed us how to do it. Might be best if I just stay out of it
     
  14. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Buffalo: I'd be surprised if it isn't the same for most motors out there-? It's probably a way for the factory to save a little money on the capacitor...
    Calixt0: Breaking both power legs when the drum switch is in the off position is desirable for the 230v case since you have two hot leads instead of
    the 115v case where you have one hot lead and one cold (neutral) lead.
    Mark
     
  15. Buffalo20

    Buffalo20 United States Active Member Active Member

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    I just to talked to Marathon, they said, the way I was doing it will work, BUT IS NOT the preferred method, it can cause problems on certain newer style motors. It was the standard way to do it about 25-30 years ago, but the method outlined by Mark, is now the preferred method, because it works regardless of motor age.

    As I've said before, you learn something new everyday, my 40 yr old method, current at the time, is now out of date (apparently for some time). To Mark and other following this thread, sorry to run you around the rabbit hole, sometimes it is necessary to shut up and listen.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  16. Calixt0

    Calixt0 United States Active Member Active Member

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    Buffalo.. thanks for your time and research.. Mark.. thanks so much. you both have helped me get a handle on this when I was so lost.. thank you both..

    Shaun

    looking forward to more interaction with you both!
     
  17. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Sure man that's what we are here for, help each other and make fun when we F### up! LOL
    Mark S
    Buffalo: No problemo
    "I pass on good ideas, I don't pass judgement"
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  18. Calixt0

    Calixt0 United States Active Member Active Member

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    funny thing is I looked today and found a second switch hidden.. it was set up to run in both directions but with 2 dtdp switchs.. I will eventually get there with a drum switch and change it from 115 to 230 volt set up. all in time!
     
  19. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    VICTORY AT LAST!!!!!!

    It's been a long time since I started this post, and there have been countless interruptions around here - not to mention my apparently latent inability to differentiate between a wiring diagram and spaghetti - but FINALLY my good friend, Andy, and I were able to get in my shop at the same time and look at the drum switch on my machine.

    He looks at it says, "Oh, that's easy." (If he wasn't 20 years younger and two times bigger than me, I could've smacked him.) He proceeded to draw out a diagram while pointing to MY wires and MY drum switch, and clearly describing how the electricity would flow from 'OFF' to 'FORWARD' to 'REVERSE'. No surprise - it worked! Big surprise - I generally understand it!

    Thanks to all who gave such easily discernible information on this subject. Too bad I'm so challenged in grasping it.

    In any event, I now have a very nice Kin Shin 'Jet-1024-look-alike' lathe that runs in both forward and reverse. That makes me a happy camper.

    Regards, and thanks again to all.
     
  20. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Don't feel too bad about not "getting it" I feel the same way around computer code/arduino- very hard to learn at my age
    Glad it's working:D
    Mark
     

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