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[How do I?] wire forward-reverse switch

Discussion in 'ELECTRICAL ISSUES - POWER YOUR MACHINES & SHOP' started by tjb, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hello, All.

    I have received some very helpful responses from several of you on an older lathe I acquired similar to a Jet 1024 (Kin Shin Model KS3.5FK, 1976 model). Thanks.

    I'm down to (hopefully) one more issue before this machine is operational. I bought a new Leeson motor that I have wired for 220. The machine's original SUPPLY or IN cable was cut too short to use. It had three wires: red/black/green, which I have replaced with one that has white/black/green (you'll notice in the picture I colored the white with a red sharpie so that the three colors match the original). The red and black are wired into the switch and the green is grounded to the machine.
    I am still using the original SWITCH or OUT bundle of four wires: red/white/blue/green - all of which are unchanged from their original positions in the switch. Below are some pictures of all this, including a photo of my handwritten info contained on the face of the switch and the exact wiring pattern before any changes (you can't really tell from the photo, but the circle of terminals are stamped in the plastic as A-1-2-B-3-4, reading clockwise).

    I'm certain the motor works correctly because I first wired it directly to the SUPPLY/IN line - it hums like a sewing machine. However, when I wire into the switch then through the SWITCH/OUT line to the motor, it kicks the breaker. I have not changed any wiring in the switch other than exactly matching the IN wires.

    I assumed the old OUT 'red' and 'black' to be the live lines, and the 'green' to be ground. That's how I wired them to the motor. Don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if the OUT wiring somehow got crossed before I got the machine.

    Anybody have any familiarity with this issue and/or this switch in particular?

    Thanks,
    Terry

    IMG_1229.JPG IMG_1233.JPG IMG_1234.JPG
     
  2. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Terry: First rule is not to assume anything. If it doesn't work now and you haven't changed anything then it was miswired when you got it.
    We will need some more info on the motor and switch. Do you have a multi meter or some way of checking continuity (even a battery and light bulb would do)?
    That switch is different than most so you will most likely need to "ohm it out"
    Mark S.
    ps it looks like the problem might involve the green wire- if it's ground it should not be a switched wire
     
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  3. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    I had one of these switches on an Atlas TH42 lathe.

    something to establish is whether the motor is going to be running on AC or DC before we can answer any control questions

    the ground connection should not be made or broken by the switch, it should be connected to the motor frame.
    you should only be switching power poles

    How many leads come out of the motor?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  4. RJSakowski

    RJSakowski H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    What type of motor? Can you post a photo of the wiring plate on the motor? Most reversible motors do so by interchanging leads to a terminal block within the motor. To change directions with an external switch, you have to bring those leads outside the motor. I believe that you should have at least four wires plus ground. Two for the main winding and two for the start winding and ground.
     
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  5. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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  6. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for your reply, Mike.

    The motor will be running 220 AC. I think you may have hit on the reason underlying the problem. If you refer back to my handwritten schematic, position 'A' is the green wire that goes OUT of the switch and to the motor. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like that should not be wired to any terminal on the switch. I assumed the other end of that wire should have been grounded to the motor frame.

    Attached is a photo of the spec plate on the motor. I am wired exactly like the 'High Voltage' schematic shown in the lower left section. My 'Red-OUT' (position 4 about 9:00) corresponds to Leeson's 'L1' which connects to 'P1'. My 'White-OUT' (position B about 5:00) corresponds to Leeson's 'L2', connecting to 'T4/T5'. As noted above, my 'Green-OUT' (position A about 10:00) is grounded to the motor frame. I have 'Blue-OUT' (position 2 about 3:00) capped off. (I tried the Blue and capping off the White with the same results.) As Leeson's spec plate shows, P2 is a capped dead-end, and 'T3/T8/T2' is wired together and a dead-end. (Again, keep in mind all the OUT wires on the switch are unchanged from how it was wired when I received it.)

    If I'm beginning to understand this correctly, it sounds to me like I should do the following:
    1. disconnect the 'Green-OUT' from position A and attach it to a convenient spot on the lathe housing;
    2. isolate T5 and connect it to my 'White-OUT' (position B);
    3. isolate T8 and connect it to my 'Blue-Out' (position 2).
    If the directions are backward from the switch, I reverse the White and Blue wires.

    Steps 2 and 3, of course, assume those are in their correct positions on the switch.

    Sound right?

    Terry


    P1000093.JPG
     
  7. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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  8. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    RJ,

    Thanks for your response. I just posted a response to Ulma Doctor which I think includes a response to you as well. If I knew how to do it, I'd copy and paste here, so if you are not able to read my answer to him, let me know, and I'll give you more detail. For safety's sake, I'm re-attaching the spec plate off the Leeson motor I'm using. I 'think' I understand what to do next, but I'd very much like to hear your comments on my post to Ulma Doctor. Again, if that's cumbersome, I'll send you more detail.

    Thanks again for responding. I think we're almost there.

    Terry
    P1000093.JPG
     
  9. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    if you want directional control over the motor,
    essentially you'll be alternately switching T5 & T8 to make contact with T4/line connection as well as the T2 and T3 pairing
    P1 will get a line connection and can be switched if desired.
    P2 is capped off
    T2 and T3 are going to need a jumper wire extended to the switch to then be switched with T5 or T8 respectively at the switch connection

    if you are not interested in forward and reverse, the problem can be handled differently
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  10. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks, Mark.

    I'm working 'uphill' on responses, so I'm only just now getting to yours. I used an ohm meter to test continuity on both Forward and Reverse. Good news: I got a lotta continuity! Bad news: Totally unsure of what I should have gotten. However, I think you might be zeroing in on something Ulma Doctor noted. I have assumed the green wire coming out of the switch (position A about 10:00 on my schematic) was a ground, so I grounded it to my motor frame on the motor end. Sounds like that's not the case. Can you access my answer to Mike (Ulma Doctor)? If so, could you share an opinion on what sounds like a solution?

    Regards,
    Terry

    P.S.: Just in case, here's another copy of the motor spec plate.
    P1000093.JPG
     
  11. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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  12. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Okay, tell me how this sounds.

    1. Leave Red OUT alone as the line connection going to P1.
    2. Isolate T2 & T3, and let the Green OUT from my switch serve as the jumper wire.
    3. Connect T8 to my White OUT.
    4. Connect T5 to my Blue OUT.

    That seems right IF the switch itself does the T5 or T8 to T2/T3. I checked the switch earlier with an ohm meter but couldn't make heads or tails from the readings. I think I have a better understanding now, so I'll check again.

    Am I on the right track?

    Regards,
    Terry
     
  13. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    sounds right
     
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  14. JPigg55

    JPigg55 United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    TJ,
    A close up photo of the motor wiring diagram would help. I can't make out the designators for the motor wiring diagram. A picture of the actual terminals for the motor will be necessary as well (one that is possible to see the stamped terminal ID's). The humming sound you heard was due to incorrect wiring.
    For the switch, there should be a wiring diagram on it somewhere. If not, you'll need a multi-meter to see what terminal are connected in each switch position.
    By your original description, the 3 lead in wires to your switch were the 2 hot leads and a ground fault wire (not ground wire, 220v doesn't require a ground wire). On your drawing, the 2 lead in wires to the switch will be connected to the terminals labeled A & B. Before you connect power to the switch, place it in the FORWARD or REVERSE position and check for continuity between the A terminal and the 4 numbered terminals as well as between B and the 4 numbered terminals.
    Next, do the same with the switch position in the other position and post what you find here.
    Here's an example of how the switch will end up being wired.

    dewhurstreverseswitch.jpg
    As you can see, you will need a five wire cable between the switch and the motor. A four wire cable could be used, but you won 't have a ground fault wire and could receive a shock if there's a short somewhere.
     
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  15. RJSakowski

    RJSakowski H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Terry, I can't really make out the wire designation on your photo and so I am hesitant to give any advice. Mike is the motor expert here.

    The motor appears to be a 120/240 volt capacitor start motor. For 120 volt operation, the run windings are connected in parallel and for 240 volt operation, they are connected in series. The start winding runs on 120 volts so it is connected across the line if running on 120 volts and to the center tap of the two run windings when running on 240 volts. The two leads described on the nameplate for reversing direction (looks like T5 and T8) need to be brought out to the switch. There will be internal jumpers which need to be disconnected.

    As to the switch, it is hard to tell from afar but since Mike already has experience with that switch, he will be able to guide you through the connections. jpigg's picture is a good graphic illustration as to how a reversing switch works. They are, for the most part, 3 pole 3 position switches and although their construction varies, they all operate pretty much the same.
     
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  16. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    as a point of information...
    to test continuity of the switch:
    With the switch in the center position,
    set your meter to Ohms (RX1)
    put one lead on Terminal A, then test each other terminal and record your readings.
    put on lead on Terminal B, then test to each of the other terminals and record the readings
    Some (most) switches are center off- there should be no continuity between poles.
    on your switch, the A & B terminals are the main poles. (but, other poles may be utilized to achieve the same function)

    to test the functions of the switch:
    switch the switch in either direction
    put one meter lead on switch Terminal A and test to the other terminals , you may get continuity on terminals 4 and 1 or, on terminals 2 and 1, respectively in relation to direction chosen on the switch throw
    put one meter lead on switch Terminal B and test to the other terminals, you may get continuity on terminals 2 and 3 or, on terminals 3 and 4 respectively in relation to switch position
     
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  17. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    It looks like that Eagle switch may be a 2 pole dual throw
    Mark S.
     
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  18. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Okay, guys - Mark, Mike, RJ, JPigg, and any others following this thread.

    I've got good news and bad news. First the good: Everything you guys have said is absolutely excellent counsel. No doubt in my mind you really know your stuff. Thanks. Now for the bad: I ain't gotta clue what you're talking about! I'm pretty good with wiring cars and trucks from scratch, and tolerable on AC both single- and 3-phase. But I've never seen the inside of a Forward/Reverse switch (until now), and it seems to me that in spite of your helpful info, I may be headed for trouble without someone close by that's actually done this before. In theory, I get it. I did all the tests with a multi-meter, and I can follow the voltage flow from each input leg into and across each terminal. But I don't have a warm fuzzy coming out of that switch into the motor. Last thing I want to do is 'guess' it's right, then throw the switch and find out otherwise. I did figure out, however, how to wire the switch to move in the forward direction, regardless of whether I toggle it 'FOR' or 'REV'. So at least I'm up and running. I have a friend that's pretty knowledgeable about wiring heavy machinery, but I can't connect with him for another week or two. When I do, I'll show him your posts before we go down to the shop. Better yet, I'll see if I can get him to join hobby-machinist and read them for himself. He'd be a GREAT resource for all of us.

    Thanks very much for the time and energy that went into all of your thoughtful answers. I'll add posts as I learn more.

    Terry

    P.S.: A couple of you said you had a hard time reading the wiring diagram on the motor's spec plate. Here's an enlargement.
    speccloseup.JPG
     
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  19. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    I'm glad that you were able to make the motor run.
    I'm sorry that I couldn't give better directions, but i respect your ability to recognize that you have reached a point where you need more direction

    Good luck :)
     
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  20. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Apology not necessary, Mike! You gave great instructions (as did the others). I'm certain that by following your directions it would work perfectly. The challenge is being 'certain' that I understand it correctly. I'm not averse to taking a risk, but as long as I'm operational, another week or two won't kill me so that someone with experience in that kind of wiring can be on hand to protect me from myself. Strikes me as a whole lot better (and cheaper) option than burning up a brand new motor.

    Regards,
    Terry
     
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  21. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Hi Terry, if you would like some step-by-step instruction later about getting the reversing function working I would be happy to help.
    Everyone else: I would like to make the suggestion that we try not to pile on too many responses to requests for specific help with electrics- it gets confusing pretty fast and everyone has his own method of teaching- sometimes it's best to have only one or two cooks on the stew if you catch my drift...
    Mark S.
     
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  22. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Anyhow I think we may have to go back and do some more continuity checks on your switch, then we will know how to wire it.
    We're always here, and the coffee is always hot ;)
    Mark S.
     
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  23. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'd like to make a global observation regarding Hobby-Machinist. I stand continually amazed at how helpful everyone on this site seems to be! That goes for members of the staff who have routinely responded and guided me on how to navigate through some of the technicalities on most effectively using this resource, continues with the many obvious expert users who are so willing (no, 'eager') to help others through specific challenges, and reaches all the way down to us neophytes who, for one reason or another, have a fascination with machining but no immediate venue to pursue it. In my case, throughout my professional career (from which I am now retired), I always needed a high-energy hobby to vent. I'm Type A/OCD; can't help it. Progressing through my personal machining learning curve, I recognized two things early on: how much there is to learn and how little I actually know. I also became keenly aware, unfortunately, of how limited resources are in my local area. That led to a pattern of investigating a small handful of blogs on the internet and, somehow ended up with my discovering Hobby-Machinist. Am I ever glad I did!

    I can candidly say I have never been involved with a resource in which participants at every level are so pleasant. I'm sitting in front of my computer trying to think of adequate descriptors and, I must say, it's difficult. The list is quite simply too long. 'Professional', 'knowledgeable', 'helpful' all come to mind, but I find myself gravitating toward a single overriding adjective: courteous. It's quite clear to me that I'm dealing with individuals who have far more knowledge in machining than I will ever know, but there is no hint of arrogance or superiority in anyone's responses. That's refreshing. And it's a life-lesson for all of us that goes well beyond machining.

    Mark, I'm responding to you because you're the last who posted a helpful comment on what I perceived to be an essentially dead issue until I had a notion to resurrect it. But I hope ALL of you who have responded to this or any of my other posts recognize I'm speaking to you as well. A hearty, 'Thank you to the Hobby-Machinist community!' And I love a good cup of coffee.

    Terry
     
  24. JPigg55

    JPigg55 United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    TJ,
    There should be a removable cover plate on your motor where the power connects to, post a close-up picture of that.
    Waiting for your friend could be a wise decision, but posts like these may well help others down the road.
    Having the complete story in posts like these allows people to direct others with similar issues to them.
    See if you can get a picture with the terminal numbers legible and post the results you got from testing your switch as well.
    Your friend might like a second opinion on the wiring as well.
     
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  25. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Thanks Terry for the compliments. This is "fun" for folks like us.
    At your end, can you see if you can disconnect the motor wire called T5 and extend it to reach the switch. That will be necessary to get the reverse function working.
    You will be running the motor on 220 volts correct?
    Next step we will do some more measuring on the switch itself, and I can provide a sketch showing what to connect. Have a dentist appt. today, will get back to you
    later...
    Mark S.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  26. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Sorry about not getting to you sooner. I'm actually committed on other issues probably through Friday. After that, I'll try to get pictures as you suggested. I don't know if you saw the close up of the spec plate that I sent in one or two of the latest posts, but the wires are exactly as indicated for the 'high voltage' option.

    I agree with you: Hopefully, this process will accomplish two things. One, I'll learn something about wiring that will likely come in handy in the future. And two, maybe it will streamline a similar challenge for some other users. A win-win for us all.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Terry
     
  27. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Yes, Mark. I'm sure I can run a wire. I pretty confident we're going to conquer this one eventually. I've been pretty swamped myself yesterday and today, and it won't be over until the weekend. So it might be a little while before I'm able to get back onto this. I'll send you a post as soon as I can.

    Regards,
    Terry
     
  28. JPigg55

    JPigg55 United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I saw the pictures, was curious as it didn't designate wire colors. Not unusual, but be careful disconnecting any wires from the terminals (which you'll have to do in order to connect to your switch).
    Removing one at a time is no problem, more than one can get problematic if you're not careful. I'd suggest making a drawing with both the terminal designators and associated wire colors for future reference if needed.
     
  29. markba633csi

    markba633csi United States Active Member Active Member

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    Terry I put together a sketch for you which should get you going. I'm presuming the switch is a dual pole, dual throw type internally. It would be advisable to remove all the wires from it and test it with your meter to verify it's really a DPDT type.
    Your switch was probably intended to be used with a relay or latching contactor; most reversing "drum" switches are a dual pole, triple throw configuration.
    The dashed line means the two wipers move together; there should be no electrical connection between them.
    Any questions just ask. MotorSW230v1b.jpeg
    Mark S.
     
  30. tjb

    tjb United States Terry H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Yes, you're right. There are no wire colors, but they are clearly labeled P1, P2, T2, T3, T4, T5, T8. That part was relatively easy. Thanks for the advice.

    Regards,
    Terry
     

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