The Bronze-Loaded Acme Nut Experiment - Part 2

graham-xrf

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This continues the butchering of the Acme nut on my South Bend 9. I have posted a series of extra pictures on the tail-end of Part1
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This time it starts with violence from a Dremel-style tool grinder. Having decided to try and make the mold from a short piece of captured polythene water pipe, it was too tight to fit over the compound nut cylinder, "Widening" using one of those little sanders that fit tight by squeezing the rubber middle between washers seemed easy enough, though it produces a tangled string of part-melted polythene dross that obsitnately hangs onto itself. This stuff does not really "abrade", but the scheme seemed to work if the tool is spun up, and pushed in in a series of stalls.

It all goes wrong!
Very, very quickly - if inadvertently, the grip in the blue bit is lost. It may have been better to clamp up the tube, but I didn't want to squeeze it "out of round", and things seemed to be going well. Let go, and the blue pipe starts spinning on the sanding wheel, but unbalanced, off centre, speeding up, and then POW! It throws the tube to collide with the ceiling, and it's bullet-like flight bounces off a few things before finding the floor. Meanwhile, the grinder is vibrating like a mad thing, and it was all I could do to get to the on/off rocker switch. The rubber tool inner was the only one I had, I "straightened it up" in a vise, but it is marked up, and will never be the same again.

Compound Nut8.jpg

Here we can see the basic setup. The threaded and untrheaded parts are the same diameter 3/8". The bit at the dial indicator end was somewhat mangled by the hard grub screw, so I filed those burrs away, and put it between V-blocks stood on a 1/2" thick glass plate I have now finally put to a good use.

Compound Nut9.jpg

I then ran into some practical issues. It did not much matter if I made the mold too high, because I could cut off the excess to have it fit with the right clearance to the casting. The very important bit to get right was to have a reasonable amount of bronze on the other side of the thread, without ending up with the nut cylinder sticking up proud of it's hole in the slide. This was going to need some nominal measurements, though not too critical.
Using the "depth gauge" measure sticking out of the end of a caliper is not as easy to get consistent results as one may think. I went through a whole series of attempts.

Compound Nut10.jpg _ Compound Nut12.jpg

In the end, the only good way was to use my recently acquired $14 bucks old Starrett depth gauge that I cleaned up and re-calibrated. It seems to read spot-on accurately, so we went with that. There are two measurements needed. One is to the top of the Acme screw, and the other is all the way to the bottom. I figured out I would need 4mm of nut sticking out of the other end, to set the thickness of the bronze around the screw.

Compound Nut13.jpg - Compound Nut14.jpg

Much of this stuff does not have any critical measures, because they largely take care of themselves by the fact it is a mold, but we do need to make some attempt at getting the screw and the nut cylinder axis to be 90°, to prevent binding. That said, the amount of up/down flop in the screw when it is in place held by the bushing part is enough that I am sure the accuracy here is not super-critical, but that is the whole motivation for hanging it between V-Blocks.

Compound Nut15.jpg

Of course, the drilling and threading of the plastic was only done with a hand drill, though carefully. The screw can be "moved" a little in angle, and it cannot be trusted to "dangle" at a reliable 90°. This is where we "force it" a little.

Compound Nut16.jpg _ Compound Nut17.jpg

It's like the 1950's with the car polish!
The old stuff has been in the garage for decades. This time, I used 2 (or is it 3?) applications as per the way it must be (Ref: "Back to the Future" movie), but this time without the wood floor treatment wax. I don't have any promotional interest in wax from turtles, which might be deduced that the 500ml plastic bottle has lasted me about a quarter of a century!

Compound Nut18.jpg _ Compound Nut19.jpg

I buffed up the insides of the threads using a piece of knitting wool stolen from the lady of the house. So here we are, trying to complete the deed. Darn - but it's a messy business! So easy to spill, or wobble while weighing out. This time, estimating, and not wanting to end up short, I went for 24grams of powder instead of 16. That was wrong. There was 13g of nut mix left over, so that's 10.4g of bronze too much, and 2.6g of epoxy.

The advice @Superburban on mixing the bronze with the epoxy first, and then adding the hardener did not make things easier. The mix of powder so overwhelmed the epoxy volume that it was all just dry lumps, very difficult to get it to "coat" all the powder. When I added in the hardener, things eased up some, but I was not sure I would get the stuff fully mixed. Eventually, I got it to a consistent lump of "dough", and I just kept flattening and re-folding it until I had no loose bronze.

Compound Nut20.jpg _ Compound Nut21.jpg

Finally, with some irony in the use of thread gauges, I got it together. I put enough in on top of the nut remnant to help fill up to the threads, then I wound the screw in, and set about tamping and loading. I pushed with my thumb from the top, to force the mix down a bit "hydraulic-style". I found by whacking the top with the flat of the spatula. I could shock the mix into giving me a somewhat shiny top, and hopefully, forced it into all the shapes below.

Compound Nut22.jpg

So here we have it. After some hours, it has "gone hard". The test nut I unwound after about 16 hours. I now have to find a non-damaging attach to be able to get some torque onto this, because it does not come with a convenient hex head. If I can get it to unwind, I will post what happened.
 
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Interesting saga. Thanks for sharing.

Cant you just put the handle and pin back on the screw and use that to unthread it from the new nut?


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There is a little drilling between the handle boss and the Acme shaft, to put a 1/16" little psuedo-key pin. I don't have that. Also, my time zone is such that I have to get some shut-eye. Good or bad, it will have to wait a few hours. :)

[Edit: Now + some hours into the next day. The thing is stuck hard. It did not come free easily like the the first try with the M12. The little pin arrangement and shaft end looks too feeble to take the sort of torque that can be applied to a nice fat bolt head. Here we have to explore "stuckiness" Ref. "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

Perhaps I put it into the freezer, then try heating the bronze part a bit?
Maybe pinch some copper tube around it, then into a vise or chuck?
I could try a stronger bond of Loctite 628 or 623 (not sure which), and get a grip tube around it that I know can be undone with heat?
Possibly, the J-B Weld, being epoxy, also has a temperature it cannot stand, so just heat the screw?

The advice from @mickri about getting the bolt out when the epoxy has set, but not fully cured, is probably the best way to go.
Also, finding some "Florida epoxy" that is more liquid to start with, instead of J-B Weld.

The folk who make reinforced epoxy-granite machine beds found 80% sand to 20% epoxy mix was best, which was why I tried that proportion for the bronze.

Oh Yay! I have just filed chunks out of my compound screw, then cemented the remains into a metal-reinforced HDPE shock-protected tomb! ]
 
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It doesn't take much heat for the epoxy to lose its grip. A hair dryer on high might work and a paint remover heat gun will work. You could also try putting it in the oven at 175 to 200 degrees.

Part of the reason it is so hard to remove is that it is perfectly formed to the screw creating a mechanical bond.
 
Heat it. Epoxy and bronze expand more than steel.
You are absolutely right, and that would work better to release it. That was the basis of my thought to freeze it all first then heat the bronze from the outside.

@mickri is also right about getting epoxy to lose it's grip with heat, and the digital temperature controlled heat gun seen in Part 1 would be just the tool to do it. To some extent, we are all learning the way through this process, with my compound nut as the experiment!

Getting it loose
I did not have to go to the extent of using a Loctite tube to get a grip as suggested by @Braeden P , because the news is, I have managed to free it, although subsequent actions to work the screw in the thread may have hurt it. When the screw is put up a piece of 15mm copper water pipe, and the pipe crushed in a vise, it gets enough of a grip to allow biggest pipe adjustable pliers to finally make the nut part turn. It happens with a cracking sound, which may not be good, and from then on, may be turned, though it must be said, feeling pretty tight.



Compound Nut23.jpg _ Compound Nut24.jpg

I tried "running through" the screw into the nut to see if it could burnish it's way into an easier feel, but it remains "damn tight". There is zero space in there, such that it cleans off any oil. I believe I have injured it by hydraulic pressure of trapped liquid up between the threads when I cleaned it out with a squirt of IPA. Carving away the excess at the thread starts left some bits inside needing to be washed out. It is still "damn tight", but the extreme pressure exposed a hairline crack on one side at the thin place where it meets the steel. I will try to get a better picture.

The original nut had a huge crack across the brazed join, so this one is in much better condition, even as it is. I can just cut a little V and put some J-B Weld in to re-join it, but the lesson here is, we need a way to get zero backlash match on only the sloping parts of the thread, and have a little space at the peaks and troughs.

Compound Nut25.jpg

I have to file back 2.5mm to 3mm off the top, to get clearance to the compound. It cries out to be "lapped in", but this is not steel on steel. I did not want to make the nut into a permanent embedded abrasive grinding lap.

I can take care of the peaks of the threads by just taking off about 0.001", and that would stop the hydraulic entrapment, and allow some lubrication. There is not much I can do about the internal troughs.

I have thought that one layer of stretched white PTFE thread seal tape as used in plumbing and pneumatics, put over the screw before molding, may be the way. It starts out as about 0.002" thick, but stretches to lay in at about 0.0003". The lesson here is that a perfect Acme thread is not one that has zero space at the peaks and troughs.

Even so, we now have a Acme nut (still in need of some love), a set of suggested improved things to do, some idea of what not to do, and we got there with low cost ingredients and near zero machinists skills involved!
 
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maybe a wire brush used for cleaning the inside of a pipe, then cut off the handle and put it in a drill and wire brush the inside it will wear it and add oil grooves
 
I have thought that one layer of stretched white PTFE thread seal tape as used in plumbing and pneumatics, put over the screw before molding, may be the way. It starts out as about 0.002" thick, but stretches to lay in at about 0.0003". The lesson here is that a perfect Acme thread is not one that has zero space at the peaks and troughs.

Even so, we now have a Acme nut (still in need of some love), a set of suggested improved things to do, some idea of what not to do, and we got there with low cost ingredients and near zero machinists skills!
I think that using the PTFE tape is the way to go.
 
Perhaps better is to spray-paint the screw, then use a small blade to scrape the paint from the thread sides. Then polish it up with wax, or use a spray release agent. You end up with zero backlash, but after a clean-up with something that removes the paint, you have a nut with clearance where it should be.

I should keep my head down a bit now. You can imagine how this little adventure would get roasted on some sites!
 
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