Rust removal by Electolysis

That's why I like the chemical method of removing rust from iron or steel. ( CLR, EvapoRust, diluted vinegar, very low concentration sulfuric acid solution, or whatever)

It's simpler and the chemical only dissolves the oxidized iron (rust) but leaves the base iron or steel unaffected.
If you see deep pitting after the clean up process it was because those missing parts were already transformed into deep rust to begin with.
There no way to transform rust into its original surface and shape of iron or steel again.


Ummmm, there is some confusion of chemical processes in this statement. CLR, diluted vinegar, very low concentration sulfuric acid solutions are all acids; they will continue to act even after the rust is gone. Evaporust and similar chemicals act as chelating agents on the rust. After the rust is gone, they will not continue to act on the base metal.

I agree with your other statements. It was pitted by the rust, not the rust removal process.
 
I am with Marcel on this one. EvapoRust is the ticket. It will clean everything you can and cannot see. EvapoRust FAQ

From the FAQ:
> Once the chelating agent has removed the iron, a sulfur bearing organic molecule pulls
> the iron away from the chelator and forms a ferric sulfate complex which remains
> water soluble. This frees the chelating agent to remove more iron from rust.

This implies that there might be a way to regenerate the stuff.
 
Note that the article linked above:

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/CRL/conservationmanual/File12.htm

states that "electrolytic reduction cleaning" may be used safely for cupreous (copper, bronze and brass) metal and goes on to give some electrical guidelines. Don't use chloride salts as your electrolyte. It's really, really bad for copper.

Otherwise, reduction works similarly for different metal oxides (it may proceed at different voltages though.)

Not sure about the possibility of plating iron onto the brass.

Walt
 
Molasses is no different chemicly from "Evaporust" which is a chelator.

Sorry, but this is very wrong; they are very different chemically. Molasses is an acid and works as an acid. Evaporust chelates the rust. Very different processes. The acid will continue to react with the de-rusted steel where the evaporust will stop.

I like using all the processes where appropriate. They are just different tools in your toolbox. I find a wire wheel on a bench grinder or an angle grinder to be the fastest method, but only where appropriate.
 
You might consider Naval Jelly too.
I worked at a local meat locker many years ago and that was what they used for cleaning various equipment.
I can't remember the mixture, but we added naval jelly with water in plastic barrels and hung parts in the mixture.
It would remove all the corrosion, but didn't pit or destroy any of the metals or affect the bearings.
After a soak for 12-16 hrs, we would just rinse the parts off with a hot water pressure washer and dip them in mineral oil (due to its food grade properties).
Worked like a charm.

Naval jelly is just phosphoric acid. I buy it by the gallon at the farm supply store as pipeline cleaner.
 
Sorry, but this is very wrong; they are very different chemically. Molasses is an acid and works as an acid. Evaporust chelates the rust. Very different processes. The acid will continue to react with the de-rusted steel where the evaporust will stop.

I like using all the processes where appropriate. They are just different tools in your toolbox. I find a wire wheel on a bench grinder or an angle grinder to be the fastest method, but only where appropriate.

Chelating agents can be acids:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDTA

Or they can be bases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation

Not sure what chelating agent that Evaporust uses.

This reference states that molasses removes rust, acting as a chelating agent. Who knew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molasses

Possibly the reason that Evaporust doesn't make additional rust is it might not contain water. Molasses won't go into solution in non-aqueous solvents.

Walt
 
From the Evapo-rust website:

EVAPO-RUST® works through selective chelation. This is a process in which a large synthetic molecule forms a bond with metals and holds them in solution. Most chelating agents bind many different metals. The active ingredient in EVAPO-RUST® bonds to iron exclusively. It can remove iron from iron oxide but is too weak to remove iron from steel where the iron is held much more strongly. Once the chelating agent has removed the iron, a sulfur bearing organic molecule pulls the iron away from the chelator and forms a ferric sulfate complex which remains water soluble. This frees the chelating agent to remove more iron from rust.

http://www.evapo-rust.com/product-info/

-Ron
 
Greg, I have read quite a bit about the process, and believe it is undesirable to have non-ferrous materials in the tank. This article mentions a plating effect of the electrode if there is brass, zinc, etc.....probably halting the rust reversal process.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm#non

Thanks for the link, this appears to be a quite good overall piece of writing on electrolytic cleaning of rust from iron. Your statement, "it is undesirable to have non-ferrous metals in the tank" is mostly correct, but not completely.

The reason the person starting this thread should not electrolytically clean rust from an object with brass or bronze bearings is that they can become plated with iron from the sacrificial anode. I have no idea how thick the iron plating will end up. However, brass or bronze will not corrode from being attached to a piece of iron being de-rusted this way.

Please ignore the rest of what I have to say if you aren't interested in the chemistry.

The author's statement:

"Please note that electrolytic cleaning is not suitable for non-ferrous metals such as copper, bronze, brass, pewter, tin or aluminium. The corrosion products found on these metals are rarely formed by electrolytic action and therefore the process cannot be reversed electrolytically."

is an odd sort of nonsense. The formation of metal corrosion products are all very similar, they are uniformly some kind of oxidation product which means the metal forms a positive ion (looses an electron*). This process can be nothing but reversible (that's not to say the reduced metal will adhere to the remaining undisturbed metal in any useful form). Aluminum is a special case because it can form both negative or positive ions. I don't know if it would be stable in the sort of reaction being performed in this de-rusting process. Since it can be attacked by either acids or bases my guess would be it would not fare well in the electrolyte being used here.

It may be correct that the process is ineffective for cleaning corrosion from copper-containing alloys, however the source that the author cites:

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/CRL/conservationmanual/

has a section which discusses safe conditions for that very process!:

"ELECTROLYTIC REDUCTION CLEANING
Electrolytic reduction of cupreous metals is also carried out in the same manner as described for iron. Either 2 percent sodium hydroxide or 5 percemt sodium carbonate can be used for the electrolyte. The latter is used most often, although acceptable results have also been achieved using 5 percent formic acid as the electrolyte. A mild steel anode can be used, but Type 316 stainless steel or platinized titanium is required if formic acid is used as the electrolyte. The same electrolytic setups described for iron or for silver (below) are used."

Possibly the confusion centers around the outcomes. It appears that reduction of black rust restores the oxidized iron to a near-original state. On the other hand, the reduction of oxidized copper may simply remove the corroded material from the remaining metal:

"Jedrzejewska (1963:135) draws attention to the fact that stripping, especially by electrolysis, may destroy significant archaeological data such as tool marks, engraved lines, and decorative elements, as well as alter the original shape of the object."

There is no suggestion in this reference at least, that "electrolytic reduction cleaning" causes copper alloys in their native state (not already corroded) to be destroyed.

Disclaimer: I am not a metallurgist. However it does not seem possible to me that zinc could be "pulled out of" a non-porous alloy. It certainly will not happen at the cathode where the reduction is taking place. The author states:

"It is a good idea to avoid galvanised steel too, as it is important that no zinc, nickel, copper or similar metals get into the solution, as otherwise some plating of the cathode may occur."

But note the context in which this statement appears:

"The iron anode, or positive electrode, should be considered to be expendable and can be expected to rust as a result primarily of the presence of molecular oxygen combining with the iron. It is possible to use high grade stainless steel as an anode to reduce this, although the chromium present in stainless steel may produce poisonous chromium compounds in the electrolyte as it erodes which are considered dangerous and which will be illegal to dispose of down the drain in many areas. It is a good idea to avoid galvanised steel too, as it is important that no zinc, nickel, copper or similar metals get into the solution, as otherwise some plating of the cathode may occur."

He is plainly advising against the use of galvanized steel (or copper, or stainless steel) as the sacrificial anode because that will put ions other than iron into solution and may plate the object being cleaned at the cathode with these metals. As stated at the top, I would be concerned not with the brass bearings corroding in the cleaning process, but instead they may end up being plated with iron.

Walt

* Chemists have come to generalize "oxidation" as being the loss of an electron for a lot of reasons that are of no interest here, but the product may or may not end up containing the element oxygen. The reason the process is called oxidation is a historical remnant of the way the underlying process was discovered: oxygen is a powerful scavenger of electrons, and is abundant in our environment. As a result, all the early examples of this sort of electron transfer were things like iron rust, combustion of organic compounds and similar processes. Interestingly, elements from the same area of the periodic table cause similar chemical reactions. Free fluorine can cause spectacular fires in materials oxygen is relatively unreactive with.
 
Franz and Walt, why didn't you post last night! My impatience got the better part of me so we're trying the molasses method. If nothing else the dog approved, she liked the molasses.

IMG_0913.jpg

Still want to try the electrolysis, we're experimenting here, for this a wire wheel on the angle grinder would have been more than good enough. If it wasn't winter and cold a rusty blower on a forge that isn't going to get cleaned would have been fine.

For when I do try it. How much hydrogen is produced? More than charging a battery? Would it be safe (and remember you can't fix stupid) in a closed up shop in the winter. Enough hydrogen to launch me back out the door as the light switch arcs?

IMG_0913.jpg
 
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