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Discussion in 'PRECISION-MATTHEWS' started by MarkM, Jun 6, 2017.
Thanks Eddyde , Thinking more and more about this and just keep it simple.
Well looks like it may be your typical machine tool it will get there when it gets there. Being the distance it is it isn't just the price which is a concern on both parties although the price isn't cheap. It's the worry of third party carriers and being shifted about more than need be being a top heavy item. So a little more investigation or even wait for a few more machines to be headed east to also help with the cost. Eisen are willing to pay half the top rate if it was my wish and send it right now. From the start I was just hoping to have it by the winter. Read quite a bit about deliveries so figured to almost expect it and its easier to take that way. They have been great so I figure we might as well wait to cut the costs a bit and to help stabilize the load with less shifting about.
So I am going to buy a Tormek T8 as my first machine. A Wet water precision grinder with an array of jigs. Figured I would be getting this way later. I want to do sharpening as well. A tool for a buck here and there and also a way to drum up business as well.
Plan on doing knives, chipper blades, mason bits, and your general twists drills. I work at an arena complex with a dining rm, ballroom, dormatories and cooks and chefs are hired all the time for weddings and functions. There paying 80$ a pop for knives and the few I've asked said they'd use the service. Small town so there's only so many that are hired. A fella I know has a 120hp cummins chipper that grinds his blades with a hand grinder and breaks things all the time. So I figure it is what it is and can run solo for now. If I can make 200$ in a year great. Maybe 400$ next year and help to pay for a few little things but also to get some relationships going for some machine work down the road when I am capable.
Good day all, well finally have all the nitty gritty done and should have the lathe in the garage the first week of aug. I have to say i am super impressed with Eisen. Got the final invoice today and another 300$ under what i agreed to. I think they feel my pain with the dollar. Also the other day in conversation i am asked what i am comfortable at paying for shipping. I hesitae and he says how about six hundred and we ll cover the rest. Well the rest is about 1200$. They won t send it with a cheap carrier. Want to make sure it get s here across the country safe. All total under eight grand. A few hundred more than the return i looked at earlier.
I ordered that tormek t8 and quite a few jigs. Have a few chipper blades lined up. Yes a crazy expensive hobby that hopefully can pay for it self.
Good news Mark, and the dollar just got about 5% better in the last few weeks.
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Yesterday I took the time to go through my tool box and see what i have to work on the lathe. I was pleasantly surprised after over fifteen years away from maching I still have some hss, carbide, even some form tools i made way back and a few thousand dollars worth of measuring instrument and some setup equipment like parallells and such. It is funny but my very first day of starting my apprentiship my mentor Scottish boss gave me an eight inch Mitutoyo beam scale caliper. Thought i needed the dial then the electronic caliper and in the end when i need to trust my calipers it was and will always be that beam scale caliper I went to. For some reason it s the one i trust and always go to. So for now i need to get a drill and a tailstock. Looking for a decent three bearing mt3 tailstock live center. Any suggestions.
I have to say this has become a pretty scary Endeavor. I spent way too much money on the lathe. I didn t want to feel that pressure and i must admit i feel i need to make money now and that isn t what i wanted. Still,want to keep it as a hobby but man it seems to take off and before you know it your in deep debt. Almost went out and bought the rf31'rong fu mill/drill and came to my senses and want to stick to doing some milling on the lathe. I figure i will learn quite a bit about setup and also will stretch my abilites after some fixtures are made to mill on the lathe. Man i can ramble. Just super excited. Have a good day all.
Also could anyone tell me if there is any benefit or a downfall to using a derated 10hp vfd or use a proper single to three phase vfd. I am wondering on the hitachi wj200 10hp version or the true single to three phase polyspede 5hp vfd. Anyone with experience with polyspede. They are an american company and i do try to buy American over,imports when i can even though i am Canadian. It seems like a decent vfd nut i am clueless at this stage,with vfd's. I believe it is the pc-150
My wife and I say that if you don't feel sick to your stomach then you made the wrong choice, because you played it safe
Hang in there, relax, take stock of the key important things in life, family, friends
I rooting for you from Alberta, where things are pretty bleak for many right now.
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Thanks KD. Someone once said to me if it isn t going to change your life don t worry about it. Still going to sleep in the same bed with the same woman and **** on the same pot. I knew after thinking about doing this for a few years it isn t going to happen overnight and it would be harder and take longer then i could ever imagine so I have to keep an even keel and enjoy the ride no matter what kind of curve balls get thrown and keep the finances in check.
Good day, I recieved the Tormek t8 precision sharpening machine and about 1500$ worth of jigs to go with it. I have to say i am super impressed. Very well engineered even the manual has impressed me. Already have a few things lined up to sharpen for people.
I plan to start a thread about my journey and once the lathe is here i ll do a little more of a review on the t8 on that thread.
Have a good weekend. Make the most and play safe.
Again I am dumbfounded how well i have been treated by Eisen through my lathe buying ordeal going way back to when I was interested in there 1236gh. Anothe Liang Dei Machine. I mentioned earlier in the thread about the coolant pump being a three phase pump. I asked about the possibility of a single phase coolant pump and in my last conversation before i ll see the lathe I was told they threw a single phase pump in the crate and didn t have time to take the three phase one out. I was willing to send it back and was told to just keep it. In this day and age it s been a great experience dealing with Eisen and thought they well deserved to be mentioned.
Good day, i went across the border and was able to actually see the lathe for the first time. Eight days in transit with four different trailers . One more hurdle to go. Get it in the garage. Still will be needed to get powered up. Heading back to Ontario in a few weeks for holidays and plan to finushnit up upon return. For now i ll clean it up and level it a few times until it settles.
I realized how much i wrote and how much it took over. One of the biggest decisions in my life to take this route. Not just the lathe purchase but this is the real committment. I valued your wisdom and thoughts. You did make a difference in my decision. In the end I bought way more lathe than i ever imagined. Spent Three grand on a grinder and some jigs. Been working on the shop getting more insulation in and retape vapor walls. Built some benches and picked up a nice 1.5 hp variable speed bench grinder with a tormek jig base for it that s made in Taiwan. Have to stop,but it s contagous and need to get at least to a point to make progress.
I ll try and get some picks up when the lathe gets in the garage.
Good luck with your machine, it sounds like you are headed in the right direction.
Well I have the lathe in the garage and quite happy how things actually fit. It was a super long day. A friend of mine who is an Arborist with a Tractor with a bucket and back hoe , a couple machine skates and a long pinch bar. Super relieved it s in. I ll get some pics up. Had to work Sun.
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Sorry I took so long. To be honest I thought is was going to be one of those "hey babe can I get a hand for a moment." Slicker than slick. Even looked for a place to write something and then in a flash no way get it in it s good your safe. Awesome forum Hobby Machinist.
The day went pretty good. Used two machine skates and a real nice long bar. Took most of the day. Tore up my shoulder the night before trying to finish the wall behind the lathe. Had an ice jam on the main door then rain a few years ago. Cut off the bottom eight inches Pulled the walls off and added more insulation and a vapour berrier. In a hissy fit pulling a sheet of press wood off Realizing this is foolish in the dark. Still can t raise my arm overhead on its own. One spot and its like a knife on a nerve. It is improving.
I mentioned the Tormek T8. I tell you I am really impressed with the level of quality and engeneering in there system and jigs. It puts out a reall nice edge and the four facet drill grind is impressive. I have been doing a few restaraunts knives and poultry scissors and some chipper blades with a 5/8 bevel.
It s all machining. Interesting too. For example the chipper blade material was A8m. A tool steel not hardened as I am used to a8 at 60ish Rc scale. These were somewhere around 35 to 40"i believe and made it a challenge Even though I,had the better wheel as well. 300$ and lost ten mm on a 250mm wheel. Had to set up my other grinder and match the angle and dip and dip and wait and dip and wait. The angle change was drastic from his hand ground 48 degrees to 31. Yes alot of grinding but convinced him to throw away the other two sets and buy new blades so i won t have to do that again. Sharp you bet. Ask me how I know!
After the vacation I get to spend another three grand. Yippidy doo! and get wired up and a vfd.
I'm looking at some eBay vfds to drive a 7.5hp 3ph motor I bought at an auction for $20
No project in mind yet for it but I'll let the motor drive the imagination
I bought a vfd a year ago (3hp max) and it works fine.
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i am in the process on deciding on a vfd. There are only a few true single to three phase vfds out there above three hp. My search has led me to polyspede pc1-50 or Gohz gk3000. Poly double the price but who cares If it s the right one. A,big question for me and i still have to figure it out before I buy is. Is there any benefit to using a true rated say 5 hp vfd than using a dreated say 10 hp. I believe it is amps anyways not hp? The reason being is Other than the grand and from what i can tell hard to decifer manual. The Hitachi wj200 seems to be the consistent one out there. Alot of users and knowledge. Great support and for me most important it is tried and proven. It s my first dive into the vfd world and really i just wanna ride my bicycle. Power me up let me use my manual break and gears for now. So any benefit to a true rated vs. Derated vfd. If it s made for the heat and spikes it should be good either way no?
I'm an amateur at best and don't use any of my equipment to make a living so burning up a motor / drive isn't a fear of mine
That said, I am running a 3hp vfd with one and two hp motors with no issues and paid $190 for the vfd (Canadian ).
My attitude would change if I was powering your lathe though as it would kill me to burn up the motor .
Take my experience as input but get advise from those who know!
Good looking machine!
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I'm using advice re derating for this 7.5 hp motor, which is why I'm looking at 10hp vfd
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I would probably recommend a single phase input 240V 5Hp drive as a first choice for several reasons. First they are available and they are less expensive than something like a 10Hp 3 phase input VFD drive like a Hitachi WJ200-075LF. This is the most likely the size you would need for a 3 Phase input drive that is derated for single phase use. The usual derating factor is to take the VFD output and divide by ~1.7, you can use a DC choke and maybe get this down to 1.5, but the total cost will be even more. The other predominate factor is that even though you are using the VFD in a derated mode for single phase input, the power input side to the VFD has to be rated for the full VFD rating, so 10Hp, or 7.5KW. Game changer when you get into the wiring fusing and breaker needed to support this size of a VFD.
My first recommendation would be a Yaskawa drive, they are a highly rated drive and used widely in many industrial machines. Almost every factory 3-5Hp single phase input VFD lathe or mill comes with a Yaskawa drive. It is also the least expensive. I would buy it from an authorized dealer so you have support and a warranty. Yaskawa, CIMR-VUBA0018FAA, 5HP, 1-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive, 4.2KW, 17.5A
The Polyspede line has been replaced, the spedestar is not UL approved for what it is worth. The Polyspede equivalent in a newer model is the Invertek Drives
The VFD drive is the E3 model ODE-3-320153-1042 INput:240VAC, Single Phase Output: 5 HP, 240VAC, Three Phase 4kW, 15.3A
I have purchased drives from both of the above vendors, I would call them and ask them what they recommend for your application. I have a Yaskawa drive in my mill, the Hitachi on my lathe, up to 3Hp with single phase input, I would recommend either. Invertek Drives are somewhat new, I have no experience with them, but speak to Drives Warehouse. I would go with the Yaskawa, CIMR-VUBA0018FAA as it is more widely supported and more widely used. I also believe this is what Eisen uses in the VFD variable speed lathes/mills
All these VFDs take a bit of work to get programmed and dialed in, the manuals can be a bit daunting. The other factor is you need to know how to wire the VFD into the machine controls, I strongly do not advise connecting the VFD inputs directly to the spindle switch for the direction controls, there are just too many things that can happen on a lathe with severe consequences. It is possible to strip out the high voltage wiring to the forawrd and reverse contactors and use them to switch the forward/reverse VFD inputs. All the other controls will work the same, the motor is directly connected to the VFD. I also like to add a few other safety features. The other component is that your machine comes with a manual brake, so if used you need to switch out the current brake limit switch for a dual pole, one side is wired as before (usually a NC that goes open when the brake is applied), the other pole you use a NO contact and is wired to a VFD input that gives the freewheel command (no electronic braking when the manual foot brake is engaged). It is not a simple drop in job. You could also go with an RPC which may be less expensive and much simpler to install.
Eisen does use the Yaskawa for there variable speed model. I just couldn t find any reviews and the fact polyspede is an American company gets a few more votes. I value and respect your opinion mksj. I should look more into Yaskawa as they are a Japanese company and like you say most factory vfd driven lathes are Yaskawa.
Yes vfd can be daunting. Kinda scary at this stage for me. I ve realized I need to educate myself not only with the obvious but I started to study the terminology that i have been coming across the many manuals I have been reading. It is getting better And I need to have a better understanding of electrical terms and abbreviations to make sense of it all. That is my main area of study now. I am planning on having a crafty electrician friend of mine hold my hand through the vfd Install.
I have to admit I have always shyed away from Electricty and even cnc for that matter. Paying for it now having been stubborn about it when I was working in a screw machine shop. I like mechanical things I can see. Electricty is wizardry Almost to me. In todays world you have to dive in or your left behind like I am. Am I getting that old where technology is passing me? Maybe? Posting pics is a classic example of my train of thought. Real busy and thought I needed a host for pics and look how easy it is. I better get my head out of the dark ages and be more open to the possibilities and not be set in stone with my thinking.
Just a thought any of you out in the Golden Horshoe area of Ontario from Toronto to say Orillia. If so how about getting together for a coffee. Just a thought. I am heading that way tomorrow and will be there for a week.
I think I found my drive. Thankyou MKSJ! After looking over the Yaskawa manual and the fact Eisen already use this series of vfd seals the deal for me. I did look for the Yaskawa previously but never found a single to three phase for 5hp. Now I can concentrate on one manual.
I know I am an odd duck and I am sure some head shaking going on in this thread. Been that way all my life. I appreciate all your thoughts and time spent trying to help me.
If I am allowed I plan to start a thread about my journey getting back into machining. I know it s a hobby forum and think of it like this. If your not making your living at it and going about it in a garage in a manner I am realizing it s going to be a good while before i will make any respectable income. It s more about getting a full rounded shop for the next few years and making my own fixtures and what tooling I can. I have four years to get set up.
I fly airplanes for a living but have been teaching myself machining over the last year so I would approach your initial question from a very basic but time tested standpoint. Part of the preamble of my Starrett book says to buy the best tools that you can afford. I have Taiwanese machines and they are more robust than Chinese. When I bought I too was looking "long term". I want my machines to last. I bought bigger than I needed, full featured machines that I can grow into rather than having to replace down the line. Once I got comfortable (and I am not there yet) with a machine I didn't want to have to replace it. Just my 2 cents. Good luck and keep in touch. I'm in Hamilton. Cheers.
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Looking forward to your posts. I'm an i.t. Manager pushing a desk who likes his job but whose brain comes alive when working on vintage machinery
I love to learn and am not afraid to try
Last nights journey was learning how to wire my 7.5 hp 3ph motor from an auction. Pulled the elect cover off and stared at 9 grey wires unmarked and unnumbered .
Hit up google and YouTube and learned about wye vs delta 3ph wiring and how to identify the wiring using a battery and analog meter
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Good that you have the VFD worked out, but if you are not familiar with electricity/wiring and programming of the VFD I would strongly recommend having an electrician work with you on the install. As I mentioned previously, if the contactors have not been used, then you can remove the high voltage wiring to the forward and reverse contactors and use one set of the contacts to switch the forward (S1) and reverse (S2) low voltage inputs on the VFD. The lathe will operate the same as if it was connected to 3 phase, and you will have speed control. You can wire the front jog switch so it directly operates a low voltage jog (S7) input on the VFD. Normally what I recommend is replacing the machine E-Stop with a lighted (24V) version, so you connect the current machine power indicator light to the E-Stop light. You then put your speed pot in the 22mm hole that was previously the power on light hole. The E-Stop would have two Normally Closed (NC) contact blocks, one side is wired the same as the current E-Stop which interrupts power to the contactors/power relay. The second NC contact block interrupts the VFD signal voltage (SC) used for the VFD inputs.
Some of this is similar to some previous threads posted below which are for a basic PM 1340GT and 1440GT VFD conversion without building a completely new control system. You will need an external braking resistor for the VFD, the VFD can stop the lathe in a controlled fast fashion, but if you have too much momentum (mass X speed) you can exceed the electronic braking ability of the VFD if trying to stop it to quickly. This will result in and over voltage error and the VFD will freewheel to a stop, this can be dangerous.
The PM 1440GT is very similar to your lathe, I have attached a document which outlines the concept of the wiring changes discussed above, but this applies to the Hitachi WJ200. If you use any diodes for the VFD input logic, you must reconfigure the VFD for Source logic for the inputs, this is controlled by DIP switch S3 on the V1000. You can use this as a starting point, as each lathe (even the same model) wiring may be different, this is provided only as general information as to the concept and suggestions. You must take all responsibility for how you would integrate this with your lathe and all electrical/safety code requirements. When I build these type of control systems, I use 2 -3 redundant safety systems, and interlocks, so for example if say a spindle switch fails closed, the E-Stop will still stop the machine.
Kd I think that is great how your going about things. Work through it until you figure it out. What a smoking deal on that motor.
Mksj thank you. Not just for the information you have given me but all the reading and studying I have done that has come from you. I sincerely and am for ever greatful what you have done for all of us. In this day and age it is awesome how you care and truly put a great effort to enable us to advance our knowledge.
I really want to have the manual brake vs. The dynamic breaking of the vfd. Many years having used it for say production work or other times where a manual break is more than just a safety feature. Other than powering the lathe on initial startup I want to have the soft start feature from the get go for the lathes longevity.
Yes I feel the same. I am not there yet. One day I hope to have the knowledge and the confidence. For me at this stage of the game I don t care how slow and long it takes to make progression. I won t take shortcuts or skim on safety to accomplish things. I just have to make sure its forward and not put my self in a position where it would put me back. I hope to be ready on my own when it s time for my first mill. Knowing they are a little easier when it comes to vfd. For now my milling will be done on the lathe. Well what I can anyways. I think with some fixtures and such there are some things you can do on a lathe like drill some deep deep holes you may not be able to on a mill. Struggle with the lathe for awhile and come up with some ideas I may never see if I went to a mill right away.
I bought a PM1440 with similar thoughts to yours regarding the VFD and 3ph motor. I've had it for a year and a half atleast, and I have never really needed that much control of speed. I've done dozens of precision projects with it and a few dozen more hack projects and with the foot break, and the motor bump button I can change speeds with the gear box awfully darn fast.
I'm a big fan of VFDs and 3Phase motors. I've got 4 cnc mills in operation with VFDs controlling 3 phase spindles and they are awesome, but for manual turning on my lathe I've found it might be nice, but I really don't miss it. I step on the foot brake, change the lever and throw the go lever back and forth. Its almost automatic now. I've got more VFDs, motors, and spindles in boxes for future projects.
As to quality. I can't speak for the other size machines, but I have been very happy with my PM machine. The tail stock is a few thousandths high, but I've been told that is to be expected. There is a spring pin in the tail stock cam lock that is too short, and will break off if you use a lot of repeated high lever pressure. I replaced mine with a longer spring pin and had no further issues. Other than that I have not noticed any real issues with the machine. Oh, yeah, and Matt sent me a free part to help me out with something I broke recently. Didn't even charge for shipping.
Hello again! Hope allis well in everyones world!
Well finally getting to the point of being able to run the lathe. After reading and reading and reading more manuals about vfd s Imhave decided on Mksj s recomendation of the Yawaska cimr - vuba0018fa single to three phase 5hp vfd and decided on the enhanced keypad and won t be getting a potentionometer after the discussion with the tech from State Motors and Control Solutions. Imhave spoken toma few other companies but feel theynwere top shelf and made me feel like a customer. I bought a few things to get going but still need my M. Level and some way oil as the machine is still in it s shipping coating other than what I needed to clean to move the carriage and tailstock to balance the machine to get it in the garage. One more week. Waiting for my drive and probably just going to go with the starret 98. Level for now and just use the test bar to setup for now. Man it s been a journey.
I think if you have never setup a VFD before then buy one from Drives Warehouse. I called them once with an issue, and one of them called me back from home after hours and helped walk me through a tricky setup.