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kdecelles

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#91
Looking forward to hearing more. I ordered a 10hp huang yang eBay vfd yesterday . If it shows up I consider it a win. I've almost figured out the wiring on that 7.5hp motor I got at auction


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MarkM

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#92
Bob I am bad on these forums. I speak my mind too fast and sometimes I forget the world has access to everything we say and I have more than once put my foot in my mouth. I remember once upsetting Matt by what I posted and didn t really think enough about it before I hit the post so I will just say I have spoken to many drive retailers and some quite a few times and found State Motors and control solutions to give me the best feeling like Eisen did buying the lathe. Also Drives Warehouse don t sell Yawaska and it is a premium drive with great support that as mksj has stated most factory machine tools use Yaskawa and also I liked there manual the best of all I have read and I am trying to educate myself so I can get through this. Not to say I won t need someone to hold my hand but I m pretty stubborn and by my next machine tool purchase I won t have to go through this learning curve again.
Kd are you going to get a 15 hp vfd and derate it or are you going to limit the hp through the vfd? Sound like you got another steal of a deal.
 

kdecelles

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#93
I'm going to try the 10hp vfd and do some testing. I'm on the fence regarding the 2:1 ratio and it is probably a sickness but I can be warned a 100 times not to do something and I won't truly believe it til I see it [emoji51]

The plan is to see if the motor works at all, measure amps etc and then try some different loads (tbd)

I don't have a distinct use in mind for this motor yet, other than to see if it runs or if I bought a good counter weight. The vfd has use regardless of the outcome . I'll go over the border to get it In a few weeks


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Bob La Londe

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#94
No offense. I'm a pretty smart guy, but when I don't know something I don't hesitate to ask for help. I would have thought the Spedestar would have been good for this application since its rated for single phase input all the way up to their largest HP sizes. Very few other VFDs over 5HP (3.7Kw) are rated for single phase input usage. Then you have to derate them to about 3.4 HP. I had the chance to buy some big lathes (bigger than my 14x40) a couple years ago cheap, but they had 10HP motors and other than installing a large rotary I didn't see an answer at the time so I passed. The 5HP Spedestar was the only one I knew of at the time. I hope the Huan Yang can handle it. I'll definitely be curious to find out. If it does ok it will open up some avenues for machines for me.
 

kdecelles

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#95
Disclosure : in no way would I run a lathe of this cost / quality on a huang yang, I'd probably cost out 3ph fees to shop or rotary converter etc

My interest is in understanding capabilities of off mArket devices for non production usage




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MarkM

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#96
Kd I have thought about the rfc as well. Would be nice to be able to go out and just hit the power button and start making chips. Believe me I am quite nervous about the whole ordeal with the vfd. Too easy can things go poof and the thought of pulling my hair out has crossed my mind more than once but also I spent way too much money not to use the 5 hp and kinda seems silly to me to lose some with the rfc. Do I really need it? No but on occasion I may once I get myself out there and doing some work Knowing I am in a garage. Would hate to have a customer at the door waiting and seeing me having to back off on some bigger diameter work that s been welded for example. A big reason I pushed out on the lathe purchase. Maybe I can fool them until I am set up properly. I ve done alot of work around here moons ago when I first moved out here on the Cdn. East coast as a machinist. Small town and word travels fast. They know me but I ll only have one chance at it with them. Torque is everything and the vfd offers it!
 

MarkM

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#98
Sometimes I wonder if I am a fool. Even an a hole at times. Maybe? I am like you kd I need to see it for myself. I ll ,get through it. It may take some time. Hopefully not too long I still need all kinds of stuff to even play. The fella that helped me get the lathe in the garage is coming over with his stump grinder tomorrow to help dig a 140' trench. Gave the word to another buddy who is the electrician to order up all the cable and such. The drive should be here sometime next week and planning on getting the vfd wired up next wkend. I think even that will be interesting as my buddy has wired up vfd s before but for industry. Around here it s fish plants mills and quarry s so he s never wired a lathe. I have some tooling from years ago and my old measuring tooIs l and to think I can do this and get set up. Spent about seven hours on a couple pairs of chipper blades that were out about 17 degrees before i could put it on the Tormek for 45$ just for a service for some machine work down the rd and hope he ll be back now there at the right angle Ya I am a fool!
Sorry for the edits. Forgot I m an idiot too!
 
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MarkM

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#99
This is all driving me batty! Up again at four thirty and can t stop thinking about this drive and what s ahead of me. Under alot of pressure at work too as were replacing the header in the curling rink. Brine is out of the floor and header welded up and ready to install. It hasn t been touched in fifty years and were hosting a National event this year.
 
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grantj

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Call Matt and talk to him about it.
If the VFD isn't going to cut it, you'll end up having to buy the RPC anyways, then you'll end up paying for both.
 

Bob La Londe

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I've got a 5HP Leland 3 phase motor on my Hurco KMB1 running off a 3.7Kw Mitsubish VFD. It was in the mill when I got it several years ago. It was still setup for 3phase before I gutted out the machine and rebuilt it. I also have the original manual for the mill where it only claims to be 4HP. I have it setup with single phase 230 for the VFD and DC power supply (I built the power supply) and 120V for every thing else, like the computer, relays, secondary power supplies, breakout board, etc.

Anyway, my mill has run just fine for several years on that VFD. I try to keep loads under 1HP (which is a huge amount of material removal), but I have pushed it up there a few times. I've stalled the motor and caused the VFD to go into trouble a few times, but I just reset it and I am good to go again... well after I fix whatever code caused me to overload the VFD anyway. With a decent quality properly sized VFD there is no reason you can't run a 5HP lathe.

I would note that a 5HP (3.7Kw) VFD is NOT the right size to run a 5HP load on single phase unless its a VFD specifically designed for that load on single phase. All the 1/3 input VFDs I have seen need to be derated from 30-35% when run on single phase.

I also have 3 other smaller high speed mills running VFDs, and have a couple spare high speed spindles and VFDs that I sometimes use as companion spindles.
 

MarkM

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Why would I call Matt? I never bought the machine off of him. It s an Eisen 1440 ge not a pm 1440 ts. Yes both from Liang dei out of Taiwan.
It s a purpose built single to three phase 5 hp vfd. That s one of the reasons I like it as well. Theres only a few of these in the 5 hp range. The vfd will get done. It s a matter of when. If I am not comfortable I ll have to wait until I feel confident enough and want to learn and yes I will be asking for guidance if needed.
I ve ran bigger lathes with more hp that bogged down. Like I said it seems silly to me to pay as much as I have and not use it. I would have bought another machine then. Been thinking about this for a few years. It s going to be a long journey and I know that. Really don t expect to be a full rounded shop for at least four years or so. I'spent fourteen years in the industry And have a licence as a machinist so my eyes aren t closed.
 

mksj

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It seems no one is reading what was previously posted. There are just a couple of manufactures that make single phase 230VAC input 5Hp rated VFDs, these have been previously outlined. These are designed to runoff of single phase, so there is absolutely no need to buy a larger VFD or buy a 3 phase VFD, which would need to be a minimum of 7.5 Hp with a DC choke, or 10Hp otherwise and be derated as noted. Since the input wiring must be rated based on 125% of the VFD rated output, it starts to become impractical. I real question the reliability and validity of the HY VFDs, and their claims to run at the higher Hp ranges, There documentation is very poor and they have many programming limitations.
 

MarkM

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I have to laugh but a message on the phone from State Motors and Controls Systems. Yawaska does not have it in stock and won t be available until the end of Oct. Too funny! Well Polyspede or Invertec. Invertec is made in the U.K. And the tech from Drives Warehouse highly recommenede it. Supposedly high quality. I do like the polyspede which is made in Taiwan. Both single to three phase purpose built drives
 

MarkM

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I apologize if I have come across as kurt or in a bad manner. It has been a very hard past few months. ,Lost my mother in six weeks to cancer and a good friend which is the brother of the girl I am with died of a heroin overdose at the age of forty six. I am not the same person and at my age going to be hitting fify this year life should be getting easier and more enjoyable. Don t sleep not just because of the vfd. Been along time but cant wait to get going properly. Tired of not being appreciated no matter where I have worked and really miss machining and it s creative side so this is a huge life change and man it s been along haul just to get here and it kills me with the lathe sitting there. Have to be patient and believe in myself I keep saying to myself
 

MarkM

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image.jpg Found the Yawaska drive I am after and in stock at Galco. Waiting to hear about the enhanced keypad and cable. Hopefully all ordered and ready to ship monday or tueseday.
Atleast one more hurdle out of the way.
 

MarkM

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image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg I ve mentioned the Tormek T8 a few times and everyone like pics so here are a few. Drill jig, planer, chipper and jointer blade jig the four facet grind and a few knives. I can take a pc. Of chicken Breast and lay it in my palm and cut it in half horizontal without holding it.
 

MarkM

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Ordered the Yawaska single to three phase drive today. Should be here Thursday. The electrician showed up at my work with my electric panel and 140' of six gauge ocean tech cable and now it sits in the garage. Going to put a few inches of sand in the trench as a base and a couple inches over top of the cable For a little insurance with the cold weather and frost and to make it easier when it s time to move in a few years. My business cards arrived in the mail also. Great day with some forward movement.
 

MarkM

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Everything is in the garage waiting for install. I never bought the enhanced keypad jvop 180 but I may down the rd. It would help a great deal with setup and to monitor the drive. It would also allow me to not deal with the setup of a potentiometer as its plug and play with ten feet of cable. I have looked at some pots and there is all kinds out there but don t know what is quality and what isn t. I would be looking for a 2 ohm linear pot if anyone would have any recomendations.
Sometimes I think this has been a cruel joke with getting it running. I can add the pot or enhanced keypad later but for now it s all there to get it running and my electrician decided to go out of town to visit his son. So more waiting. Oh well I guess I ll go work on the shop.
 

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mksj

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Just about any potentiometer will work for a speed pot. You will want a 2K ohm linear pot, not 2 ohm, I like to use a better quality pot as they are more reliable then the old carbon track pots. The better pots often use film or are wire wound for the resistance pathway. You will need to get a knob for the speed pot, it would be for a 1/4" shaft. You should use shielded 3 wire (18-22AWG) cable between the speed pot and the VFD if mounted remotely. The cable shield is only connected at the VFD end to the VFD ground connection. I usually put some shrink tubing or tape around the shield at the other end so it is insulated.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clarostat-5...W-1-Turn-QTY-1-RV4NAYSD202A-C43-/401403319133
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clarostat-5...SD202A-NEW-in-Box-Free-Shipping-/252732310397
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carol-C2535...n-Cable-UL-2093-300V-CMH-Gy-50ft/152622187631
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Contr...rip-Dual-Set-Screws-Line-25-New-/222321455717

An alternate 22mm hole speed pot is sold through Automation Direct, it is a 5K but will work fine. I routinely use these for both Hitachi and Yaskawa VFDs. They also have a lot of other electrical components, I purchase many their items when I build VFD systems.
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...dicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2300-5K
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad..._Indicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2640
 

tq60

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Before you bury the power do place warning tape in the trench.

They make tape just for this and it is readily available

You place the tape above the wires more close to the surface so if and when someone digs in the dirt they hit the warning tape.

Next make clear map with measurements from fixed things like buildings and clear description of the trench and place copies inside power boxes at each end .

Regarding VFD selection in general.

You did well but others are suggesting wrong approach for final selection by simple derating.

Yes you can start there but as you did contact manufacturer or download the manual to see if the device will work on single phase and which model is listed en motor size.

We did this with our Allen bradley as we needed 2 hp and the manual stated 3 hp needed with the model number so eBay search for that specific one and 199.00 later we are golden.

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MarkM

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Ready for cable. About five inches of fine sand as it sits. Really soft though. I hoping after draging the cable through to have three or so inches of sand and fill over top with the same sand just for a little wiggle rm. and to help with a poke from rocks and marked out.
Thanks for taking the time to post for the information and links to everyone!
 

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kdecelles

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When I pulled permits I'm AB 10 years ago trenches needed to be 24-30 inches deeps.


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MarkM

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I have my depth for code with tek cable and some. Five inch s isn t my depth it s the amount of sand on the bottom and the cable will be worked in to around three from the bottom. Everything is done to code with the proper paper work and licenced electrician. A stump grinder was used so the top half is wider than the bottom to give clearance for the bearings on the machine to reach depth. The bottom is only four inches wide as its the width of the wheel for digging. All good!
 
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MarkM

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I have to say after reading about vfd s and what they bring to the table for motor control for machine tools it is impressive coming from my screw machine background. Compared to cams gears levers and trip dogs its a whole new world that impresses me more and more as I get further into what can be done with them. For me for now I am just looking for the simple setup to enable me to run the lathe with soft start and use my mechanical brake.
 

kdecelles

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Mark, good to hear on the code depth, i ran electric and gas in the same trench, separated the two with a 2x6 pressure treated board on end. In top I laid a 2x10 flat so anyone digging will hit it first

I'm going to the border to get my vfd in a week or so, I took a couple days off work and went camping by myself, sitting my a lake watching the sun come up, reading forums and machinist magazines......


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MarkM

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Well I got the 220 single phase to the garage and the trench almost filled back in. Working getting ready the garage for winter as it was some chilly sat morn. at -2 celsius. I am not up to speed with the Yaskawa v1000. I have read and read and it is starting to make sense. I would like to use the open loop vector control but may sway to the vf setting as the drive in this model does offer constant torque with vf operation and would be a little easier to just get the oil and machine moving. Made some progress in the shop too so a good wkend. Still need to run the lines from the panel to,the vfd and a 240v heater. Hope to have it all wired within two weeks and for me Nov. 1st is my deadline to be running.
 

mksj

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Use sensorless vector control, it gives you much better control over a wider operating range then you will get with just V/F control. It gives continuous torque over a wider range. I previously outlined using the current forward/reverse contactor and stripping the high voltage connections and using them to switch the Forward/Reverse VFD inputs. It is not wise to hookup the VFD directly to the spindle controls and even more dangerous with a mechanical foot brake. Using the contactors to switch the VFD inputs, it will operate just like your machine would work if operating off of an RPC. The motor is directly connected to the VFD. There are also issues that if using the mechanical brake, you need to send a free run command to the VFD. You need to also set the motor parameters in the VFD, and preferable run the autotune. Yaskawa has a nice software interface, I made my own cable for my VFD.
 

MarkM

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Thanks again mksj. I feel the same about the vector control. Just thought it might be easier for now to get up and running. I have noted your comments on the forward and reverse controls from your previous post. Yes wire the motor directly from the vfd and use the coast to stop for the braking parameter. Set the dip switch for the controls along with some of the parameters for the controls as well. Not sure about the coolant pump if I should just wire it separately or not. Sometimes I wonder if I am reading too much and complicating things for myself. Learning a fair bit though and not just about vfd's. It s a must to auto tune if using vector. Is it just a matter of removing the belt for no load and auto tune with rotational? What is the difference between rotational and stationary auto tune if I may ask?
 
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mksj

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If the coolant pump is single phase, then it would operate normally. Similar to the 1440GT conversion process, 240VAC single phase must be wired to the main lathe control system. Only the 240VAC three phase power wires going to the forward/reverse contactors and the motor overload relay/wires to the motor is disconnected. Do not disconnect the contactor control wires. You need to see which main control system two power input legs L1 and L2 OR L1 and L3 are used to connect to the main transformer and these also would provide power a single phase coolant pump. You can check this by tracing which input power wires go to the 240 VAC input of the transformer. You should have a coolant contactor with overload relay which would switch on/off the coolant pump. The coolant pump contactor and its overload relay are wired a bit differently if used for single phase vs 3 phase. If you take some high res pictures of the control system and have a wring schematic I can provide some further details as to wiring suggestions. In most cases (like 95+%), hobbyist do not use flood coolant because it is usually not needed, very messy, and more commonly a FogBuster/mist system is used if needed. I often just use a applicator (oil can/brush) and sometime air to clear the chips.

The sensorless vector mode will work OK without running the autotune (so don't worry about doing it upfront), it is just that the motor will run a bit smoother if the specific motor parameters are loaded. Running it with motion and the belt off allows it to more accurately determine the motors specific parameters, static is usually for systems where it is hard to physically disengage the motor from the system, so something like where it would be directly connected to a transmission/gear case. Do not overthink the system, get the basics wired and operating and then you can fine tune the specifics. The VFD should only need a few parameters adjusted to get it up and running, you will need to check the type of limit switch used for the mechanical brake, and replace it with a dual pole switch. The second pole (Normally Open contact) is wired to a programmed VFD input to issue a free run command. The other switch pole is wired the same as the current brake switch, and should be a Normally Closed contact. If you take a picture of the limit switch I can point you to a suitable replacement. As previously mentioned, I strongly recommend you have an electrician work with you setting up the system to get the wiring correct.
 
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