At what point are you considered a "Machinist"?

[Aaron_W]

I have worked running manual lathes & milling machines & as a certified stick welder for about 40 rears.
I thought I was really good until I saw some of the model engines built from scratch on this site.
Really gives a guy some perspective.

When I entered the trade in 1995, the retiring tool & die makers I worked with were "machinists". Gods is more like it, those guys were amazing.

I've reached the highest machinist classification within a global corporation, but kinda laugh because I'm still nowhere near the guys that trained me. I suppose 20 more years of challenging myself could get me close?

There isn't really a standard for education in the states anymore in a professional setting. It is common for most to just lie on their resume, then sink or swim in the position.

10,000 hours is a pretty good threshold, but those hours must be spent at a higher quality than simply pushing a blinking button on a CNC, while loading parts into a hydraulic fixture.

Believe it or not, the average hobby machinist is probably more competent than the modern pro counterpart. It's all about low skill/wage production anymore, with very little room for advancement.

Anecdotally speaking, most machinists have no passion or desire to improve. They are perfectly happy doing the same thing day after day and whine when anything upsets the status quo.

I find there is often a large difference in skills between those working in a profession and those doing it for themselves whether as a hobby, small business or just necessity (like a farmer or rancher using welding equipment and machinery to keep the equipment running). Not necessarily better, or worse but it is different doing it for yourself and doing it in a workplace with others, and subject to rules and requirements.

I've done a lot of DIY home repairs and consider myself pretty handy. I even had a job when I was in college doing handyman work for a guy who had a couple of apartment complexes. I've done projects with guys who have worked in the trades and while I can do a lot of the work, working with guys who have really done it I saw how much I would be a liability on a job site. I only know how to work as a one man show. A real carpenter, electrician, plumber, drywall guy etc knows how to work around all the other people doing their thing. They can do their job off to the side, get in to install it quickly and then get out of the way. They know what parts to complete and what to leave unfinished until later.

I'm a hobby guy, I can weld, machine a part, wire an outlet, install a dishwasher, work on my car or build a fence, but I am not a welder, machinist, electrician, plumber, mechanic or a carpenter.

 

[mikey]

So, what does one call a person who has a passion for metalworking with machinist tools? Passion enough to spend years and years learning about his machines and everything pertaining to them? He may not have every machine there is but the ones he does have, he knows inside and out and he knows everything about the tools he uses to run them. What do you call a guy who studies on his own to understand hydraulic systems, physics, electronics and multiple other subjects just so he can complete a tool that he designed for himself that no one else will ever see, just for the sheer pleasure and enjoyment it brings? We often talk about tolerances and such but some folks work to ridiculous tolerances just for the challenge of seeing if they can do it, and when they do it they can enjoy a quiet moment of triumph, just for themselves. This kind of guy may not ever be a "pro" but that is not the goal; the goal is self fulfillment, happiness, passion, learning, personal growth and achieving a level of competence in his area of interest that satisfies his own standards.

To me, that is a hobby machinist, working all alone and doing it for years on end, not for a label or title but for the sheer and simple joy of doing it with his own hands, his own skills, and becoming more than he was.

Being called a machinist implies having done the training, the apprenticeship and the years in the trade it takes to become a pro. The same can be said for doctors, lawyers, carpenters and so on. Because you dabble in machining does not make you a machinist because you haven't paid the dues.

But you can be called a hobby machinist. To me, that's not so bad.

 

[deakin]

my grandpap got a diploma that said he was a machinist

so i guess it's like the wizard of oz...... what do those machinist have that you don't? a diploma. here......

 

[hman]

Just a general comment here ... I like everything I've read. Even if I disagree with some points, it's nice to see a vigorous but friendly discussion going on.

Can you imagine what kind of flak would happen on "some of the other forums" if anybody asked such a question?

 

[projectnut]

My thoughts are in line with those expressed by MrWhoopee, Benmychree, Mikey, Frankly2, and a few others. To me you have to walk the walk before you can talk the talk. The titles Machinist or Tool & Die Maker are earned through years of education and hard work.

The shop I worked in had several outstanding machinists that could make what ever you wanted from a sketch on a napkin. Not only that they could grasp the concept of what the designer was trying to accomplish they could offer suggestions for upgrades and improvements before a print was ever made. I can recall times when guys in the shop would make a part far superior to the original design. The boss would sometimes send a draftsman to the machine shop to make a drawing from a part rather than send print to the shop to have a part made.

These were some extremely talented people. I stayed as close to them as I could. Everyday was a learning experience. I was probably the most disappointed person in the company when I got a promotion. While the pay was better I had to move out of the shop to a cubicle on the 5th floor. It put a huge damper on my learning process. On the other hand I think I could have stayed in the shop for another 20 years and still never learned 20% of what those guys knew.

The finest example of a Machinists Machinist I can recall was a few years ago when my wife and I visited Los Alamos. We went through the museum housing photographs and documents of many of the primary participants in creating the atomic bomb. Of all those people the one that impressed me the most was a machinist. He had built a high speed camera capable of 10,000 frames per second from a hand full of photographs. The camera was used to film several of the experiments and eventually the testing of the bomb. I have always been in awe of people with those talents and abilities of comprehension.

With over 20 years of learning experience on the shop floor, and several years supervising a machine shop I would never call myself a Machinist. There's a huge difference between being able to operate the machines, and being a Machinist.

 

[alloy]

There's a huge difference between being able to operate the machines, and being a Machinist.

 

[mmcmdl]

Believe it or not, the average hobby machinist is probably more competent than the modern pro counterpart. It's all about low skill/wage production anymore, with very little room for advancement.

I absolutely agree with this statement . Everyone is now considered a machinist if they can push the green cycle start button on a cnc mill or lathe . Give them a job outside of that envolupe (sp) and they're lost . This has been going on for a long time now . I got out in 99 because of this reason , the large companies didn't want real machinists to set-up , program , and run the jobs . They wanted a mechanical engineer , a programmer and a button pusher , or they just subbed out the crap overseas .

 

[BGHansen]

+1 on bakrch's comment. We have a nephew who is now a "CNC machinist". Completed a little under 1 year program. "Jack of all trades"? Not so much. But he does know a G0 from a G1 from a G41, etc. Also is pretty good at CAD, but is sooo inexperienced in everything else.

I understand and accept that technology changes, mostly for the better. I made all of the cabinetry in our house in 1993. Also, have at least one stick of furniture made in my shop in each room. Used a joiner, table saw, thickness planer, air nailers, router/shaper, etc. Then I'll watch an episode of the "Woodwright's Shop" starring Roy Underhill and shake my head. Great to see how it was done 100+ years ago; thank God for the technology that let me bang out the raised panel doors in a fraction of the time. Yeah, not as "crafty" as someone filing a piece of steel for a plane to manual cut in the profile, but we wanted our cabinets done within my lifetime.

The rhetorical statement "follow the money" is apropos for "modern" machinists. It's got to be tough for US-based companies to compete against government-subsidized foreign manufacturers with much lower labor rates. Our tool and die makers at work completed an apprentice program of at least 8000 hours. That's 40-hour weeks, 50 weeks a year for 4 years. Lots more study/work time than any Bachelor's degree. Businesses are looking for production, not craftsman-made jewelry. Any of us on this forum with CNC equipment can attest to the benefits and time savings of that tech. Think "John Henry was a steel-drive'n man" vs. a steam engine drill. He won the battle but lost the war. The suppliers of our auto parts are up against the same wall, they have to get production numbers of good parts and don't care if a rocket scientist or a CNC machine made them as long as they're producing good parts per schedule and at or under budget.

Yet another plus side of this forum is we are keeping the older tech in use and "out there" for the current generation to see. It's great to see some old tech like a Sorenson Center Mike, Starrett 104/107 speed indicator, or some old foot-operated lathe in use. Our nephew occasionally putters in my shop and is a sponge for old school stuff. It's somewhat funny to see his jaw drop when he looked at a dividing head (for example) and asked "what's that?" He'd run circles around me cutting gears with a 4-axis on the CNC vs. me on a Bridgeport doing it manually. At least in his case he's interested in seeing how it used to be done which does add to his arsenal of techniques to throw at a job. Maybe in 20 years he'll be a "real" machinist though personally I'd consider it an insult to the guys & gals who completed the 8000+ hour apprentice programs.

Bruce

 

[projectnut]

+1 on bakrch's comment. We have a nephew who is now a "CNC machinist". Completed a little under 1 year program. "Jack of all trades"? Not so much. But he does know a G0 from a G1 from a G41, etc. Also in pretty good at CAD, but is sooo inexperienced in everything else.

I understand and accept that technology changes, mostly for the better. I made all of the cabinetry in our house in 1993. Also, have at least one stick of furniture made in my shop in each room. Used a joiner, table saw, thickness planer, air nailers, router/shaper, etc. Then I'll watch an episode of the "Woodwright's Shop" starring Roy Underhill and shake my head. Great to see how it was done 100+ years ago; thank God for the technology that let me bang out the raised panel doors in a fraction of the time. Yeah, not as "crafty" as someone filing a piece of steel for a plane to manual cut in the profile, but we wanted our cabinets down within my lifetime.

The rhetorical statement "follow the money" is apropos for "modern" machinists. It's got to be tough for US-based companies to compete against government-subsidized foreign manufacturers with much lower labor rates. Our tool and die makers at work completed an apprentice program of at least 8000 hours. That's 40-hour weeks, 50 weeks a year for 4 years. Lots more study/work time than any Bachelor's degree. Businesses are looking for production, not craftsman-made jewelry. Any of us on this forum with CNC equipment can attest to the benefits and time savings of that tech. Think "John Henry was a steel-drive'n man" vs. a steam engine drill. He won the battle but lost the war. The suppliers of our auto parts are up against the same wall, they have to get production numbers of good parts and don't care if a rocket scientist or a CNC machine made them as long as they're producing good parts per schedule and at or under budget.

Yet another plus side of this forum is we are keeping the older tech in use and "out there" for the current generation to see. It's great to see some old tech like a Sorenson Center Mike, Starrett 104/107 speed indicator, or some old foot-operated lathe in use. Our nephew occasionally putters in my shop and is a sponge for old school stuff. It's somewhat funny to see his jaw drop when he looked at a dividing head (for example) and asked "what's that?" He'd run circles around me cutting gears with a 4-axis on the CNC vs. me on a Bridgeport doing it manually. At least in his case he's interested in seeing how it used to be done which does add to his arsenal or techniques to throw at a job. Maybe in 20 years he'll be a "real" machinist though personally I'd consider it an insult to the guys & gals who completed the 8000+ hour apprentice programs.

Bruce

Several years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a number of shop owners from the Detroit area that were doing contract work for the auto industry. One of the fellows brought along some samples of the things his shop was making. Among them were brake bleeder screws. He was currently making them on several B&S screw machines at the rate of 1 part every 2.5 seconds.

He lamented that he either had to find a way to speed up his current machines or purchase some new ones that were faster. At the rate his current machines were producing he was in danger of either loosing the contracts, or not making a profit. His calculations revealed he had to get the production time down to 1.8 seconds per unit to retain the contracts and make a profit. The average contract was between 1,000,000 and 3,000,000 parts.

In this case time is literally money, and fractions of a second do count.

 

[silverhawk]

I had to do some math. Getting parts counts down from 2.5 seconds to 1.8 seconds doesn't sound like much. But, with a part count of 1,000,000 parts, that 0.7 seconds yields 700,000 seconds, or just over 194 hours. At an average shop rate of $60-80 per hour, that results in a savings of between $11,640 and $15,520 . At 3,000,000 parts, that savings would be 583 man hours, or between $34,980 and $46,640 . Yeah, at that scale, fractions of a second can be costly.