-
Welcome back Guest! Did you know you can mentor other members here at H-M? If not, please check out our Relaunch of Hobby Machinist Mentoring Program!
Which VFD for 10 hp spindle
- Thread starter Karl_T
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2021
- Messages
- 3,271
I've heard good things about both the Hitachi and Fuji in that ratings. I have had good luck with Teco on the smaller ones but haven't heard much nor used them on larger machines. Good luck with the 10EE!!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2014
- Messages
- 5,056
Hi Karl,
So a few things to consider, first would be the motor, as far as I can see that PE284T-10-8 900 RPM (29.7A at 230V) motor does have a 10:1 constant torque ratio but it may be limited in its upper speed (did not see any specs.). I did check a few other motors so something like the PEWWE10-9-284T is rated as 10:1 and a draw of 27.5A. When you get into the vector/inverter motors you are getting much wider operating ranges which should give more linear low end torque. The 900 RPM motors tend to be a bit less efficient and have a higher current draw, and they are darn heavy and big but varies by model. I did some checking on eBay and there are a few suggestions below, I think the Teco 1200 RPM motor which is an inverter/vector type motor and specifies an operating range of 3-120 Hz might be a better option as far as speed range and operating efficiency and also has a has a lower (FLA) current of 25.6A . It should also be able to spin faster, probably 2.5X the base speed. With the Teco inverter/vector you could get by with a size smaller VFD. It is also ~1/2 the cost of the 900 RPM one.
The VFD's I have installed/worked with others using the Hitachi, Yaskawa, Teco and Fuji models. In preference for a lathe application I probably would rate them as Yaskawa first, then Hitachi or Teco, and last would be the Fuji. I use the Yaskawa in both my mill and lathe, I find they are a bit better operating and less issues then some of the other brands. Fuji are the least expensive in their cheaper (mini) units, but I tend to recommend them for situations where I need maximum amps with minimum function. In applications where I need more inputs and programming adjustability I prefer not to use the Fuji lower end drives. I have parameter files for most of these and have done quite a bit of tweaking with the Yaskawa V1000's as well as the Hitachi and can provide you with suggested parameters that I have used.
Be careful in the application of VFD drives in a derated mode, so something like the Hitachi Drives P1-00600-LFUF is only rated for 22A (ND) with a single phase input, the 00800 model is rated for 31A and the 0930 for 36.5A. Many of the VFD's amp/Hp ratings are over inflated for variable torque or light duty, in HD mode of for single phase input they need more significant derating. The new Hitachi SJ-P1 line are very nice, but also quite expensive in particular the size need for derating. There are no native single phase models.
Use of a DC bus choke makes a significant impact on peak current draw and also derating, so you can usually get by with a 1.5 derating, but is VFD model specific. I often will use the MTE buss chokes, you can often find them at good prices on eBay, something in the 40A or 50A (DCA005003 or DCA005004) would work in the derated mode as you are only pulling 25-35A depending on the motor.
Mark
900 RPM Motors
https://www.ebay.com/itm/150282-22-...EFC-208-230-460V-3-PH-60HZ-RIGID/222911199825
1200 RPM Inverter Vector
1750 RPM Inverter Vector motor
VFD's to consider based on the PE284T-10-8, you could go down a size with a higher efficiency motor.
Hitachi Wj200-150lf (60A in CT (HD mode) and 35A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
www.driveswarehouse.com
If more efficient motor than: Hitachi Wj200-110lf (47A in CT (HD mode) and 27A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
www.driveswarehouse.com
Yaskawa V1000 CIMR-VU2A0056FAA (47A in CT (HD mode) and 28A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
motorsandcontrol.com
Yaskawa V1000 CIMR-VU2A0069FAA (60A in CT (HD mode) and 36A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
motorsandcontrol.com
Teco Westinghouse E510-220-H3-U (64A in CT and 38A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
dealerselectric.com
If more efficient motor than: E510-215-H3-U (47A in CT (HD mode) and 27A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
www.wolfautomation.com
Hitachi SJ-P1 drives, see output rating using single phase source
So a few things to consider, first would be the motor, as far as I can see that PE284T-10-8 900 RPM (29.7A at 230V) motor does have a 10:1 constant torque ratio but it may be limited in its upper speed (did not see any specs.). I did check a few other motors so something like the PEWWE10-9-284T is rated as 10:1 and a draw of 27.5A. When you get into the vector/inverter motors you are getting much wider operating ranges which should give more linear low end torque. The 900 RPM motors tend to be a bit less efficient and have a higher current draw, and they are darn heavy and big but varies by model. I did some checking on eBay and there are a few suggestions below, I think the Teco 1200 RPM motor which is an inverter/vector type motor and specifies an operating range of 3-120 Hz might be a better option as far as speed range and operating efficiency and also has a has a lower (FLA) current of 25.6A . It should also be able to spin faster, probably 2.5X the base speed. With the Teco inverter/vector you could get by with a size smaller VFD. It is also ~1/2 the cost of the 900 RPM one.
The VFD's I have installed/worked with others using the Hitachi, Yaskawa, Teco and Fuji models. In preference for a lathe application I probably would rate them as Yaskawa first, then Hitachi or Teco, and last would be the Fuji. I use the Yaskawa in both my mill and lathe, I find they are a bit better operating and less issues then some of the other brands. Fuji are the least expensive in their cheaper (mini) units, but I tend to recommend them for situations where I need maximum amps with minimum function. In applications where I need more inputs and programming adjustability I prefer not to use the Fuji lower end drives. I have parameter files for most of these and have done quite a bit of tweaking with the Yaskawa V1000's as well as the Hitachi and can provide you with suggested parameters that I have used.
Be careful in the application of VFD drives in a derated mode, so something like the Hitachi Drives P1-00600-LFUF is only rated for 22A (ND) with a single phase input, the 00800 model is rated for 31A and the 0930 for 36.5A. Many of the VFD's amp/Hp ratings are over inflated for variable torque or light duty, in HD mode of for single phase input they need more significant derating. The new Hitachi SJ-P1 line are very nice, but also quite expensive in particular the size need for derating. There are no native single phase models.
Use of a DC bus choke makes a significant impact on peak current draw and also derating, so you can usually get by with a 1.5 derating, but is VFD model specific. I often will use the MTE buss chokes, you can often find them at good prices on eBay, something in the 40A or 50A (DCA005003 or DCA005004) would work in the derated mode as you are only pulling 25-35A depending on the motor.
Mark
900 RPM Motors
https://www.ebay.com/itm/150282-22-...EFC-208-230-460V-3-PH-60HZ-RIGID/222911199825
Weg Electric motor 284TC, 10HP 900 rpm Severe Duty | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Weg Electric motor 284TC, 10HP 900 rpm Severe Duty at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
1200 RPM Inverter Vector
NEW TECO 10HP, 1200RPM, 230/460V, 256T, TEFC | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for NEW TECO 10HP, 1200RPM, 230/460V, 256T, TEFC at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
1750 RPM Inverter Vector motor
Marathon Black Max w/ Encoder AC Motor TVD215THTL7726FVL 10HP 4200RPM NewSurplus | eBay
Part #: TVD215THTL7726FVL. Marathon Black Max w/ Encoder AC Motor. Avtron Encoder New S urplus. Part #: AV56A 1CBE8XP000.
www.ebay.com
VFD's to consider based on the PE284T-10-8, you could go down a size with a higher efficiency motor.
Hitachi Wj200-150lf (60A in CT (HD mode) and 35A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
WJ200-150LF
www.driveswarehouse.com
If more efficient motor than: Hitachi Wj200-110lf (47A in CT (HD mode) and 27A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
WJ200-110LF
www.driveswarehouse.com
Yaskawa V1000 CIMR-VU2A0056FAA (47A in CT (HD mode) and 28A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
Yaskawa, CIMR-VU2A0056FAA, 20HP, 3-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive
Yaskawa, CIMR-VU2A0056FAA, 20HP, 3-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive
Yaskawa V1000 CIMR-VU2A0069FAA (60A in CT (HD mode) and 36A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
Yaskawa, CIMR-VU2A0069FAA, 25HP, 3-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive
Yaskawa, CIMR-VU2A0069FAA, 25HP, 3-Phase, 200-240V (Input), NEMA 1 Enclosure, Variable Frequency Drive
Teco Westinghouse E510-220-H3-U (64A in CT and 38A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
Purchase 20 HP VFD, 230 Volts, NEMA 1/IP20, Teco, E510-220-H3-U at Dealers Industrial
20 HP VFD, 230 Volts, NEMA 1/IP20, Teco, E510-220-H3-U Variable frequency drives are a device that varies the speed of a three phase motor.
If more efficient motor than: E510-215-H3-U (47A in CT (HD mode) and 27A in derated mode for single phase, would use a DC buss choke)
E510-215-H3-U
E510-215-H3-U quick delivery, authorized Teco Westinghouse distributor. Offers complete line of AC Drives . Easy online ordering, rewards program, and great pricing.
www.wolfautomation.com
Hitachi SJ-P1 drives, see output rating using single phase source
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2021
- Messages
- 3,271
Some back of the napkin numbers thinking of the 10EE application -
This article gives a good explanation and graph of motor torque and power: VFD Motors torque vs. HP
The "Constant Torque" range is below 60Hz. That motor is rated 10:1 Ct and 20:1 variable torque. I believe that means it is reasonable running it from 6Hz to 120Hz, which would give roughly 90 to 1800 RPM ignoring motor slip. Spindle RPM will be close to motor rpm, depending on your pulleys. You might want to push it to 150Hz to get around 2200RPM. Many VFDs are capable of faster but the motor is not rated for it.
I know many 10EE users prefer the Marathon Black Max type motors, rated for a much wider VFD range. I'd prefer that over spending money for a "crusher duty" motor that isn't rated for a wide VFD range, even if you have to step down to 7.5HP and a 15HP VFD in terms of pricing. These can be rated for up to 1000:1 CT speed range, meaning very slow (around .1 rpm). I'd probably lean toward a 1200RPM motor with at least 100:1 CT speed range, spinning 1 RPM to 2400RPM should then be within fully approved ratings. You can step that up a bit on the motor to spindle pulley.
This article gives a good explanation and graph of motor torque and power: VFD Motors torque vs. HP
The "Constant Torque" range is below 60Hz. That motor is rated 10:1 Ct and 20:1 variable torque. I believe that means it is reasonable running it from 6Hz to 120Hz, which would give roughly 90 to 1800 RPM ignoring motor slip. Spindle RPM will be close to motor rpm, depending on your pulleys. You might want to push it to 150Hz to get around 2200RPM. Many VFDs are capable of faster but the motor is not rated for it.
I know many 10EE users prefer the Marathon Black Max type motors, rated for a much wider VFD range. I'd prefer that over spending money for a "crusher duty" motor that isn't rated for a wide VFD range, even if you have to step down to 7.5HP and a 15HP VFD in terms of pricing. These can be rated for up to 1000:1 CT speed range, meaning very slow (around .1 rpm). I'd probably lean toward a 1200RPM motor with at least 100:1 CT speed range, spinning 1 RPM to 2400RPM should then be within fully approved ratings. You can step that up a bit on the motor to spindle pulley.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2021
- Messages
- 296
I have extensive experience with Hitachi's SJ-P1 series drives. Hitachi rates them for single phase supply. It's not the motor's horsepower rating that determines the drive you need, it's the full load amps. Drives Warehouse has great pricing, they ship fast and this is a great drive. I'm happy to help if I'm able. I run these drives in my personal machines on single phase power and they work well. I run the 20HP drive on my 5HP (29fla) Yaskawa spindle motor on the mill and it handles the motor quite well. I believe I paid $1200 shipped for the drive.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2014
- Messages
- 2,112
OK, Hitachi it is for the VFD.
I have received SO MUCH MORE great advice than I expected.
Motor:
The seller on the teco has a 0 rating so it is out.
four pole so 1800 base RPM
900 base RPM
I am after the largest possible speed range. My thinking, I could run the 900 RPM unit from 45 to 2700 RPM (5 to 180 hz)
I am guessing the first offer could go from 90 to 4200 RPM. Max is stated in the specs.
Which is the better choice?
Karl
I have received SO MUCH MORE great advice than I expected.
Motor:
The seller on the teco has a 0 rating so it is out.
Marathon Black Max w/ Encoder AC Motor TVD215THTL7726FVL 10HP 4200RPM NewSurplus | eBay
Part #: TVD215THTL7726FVL. Marathon Black Max w/ Encoder AC Motor. Avtron Encoder New S urplus. Part #: AV56A 1CBE8XP000.
www.ebay.com
four pole so 1800 base RPM
150282.22- Leeson 10HP..840RPM.284.TEFC.208-230/460V.3 PH.60HZ.RIGID. | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 150282.22- Leeson 10HP..840RPM.284.TEFC.208-230/460V.3 PH.60HZ.RIGID. at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
900 base RPM
I am after the largest possible speed range. My thinking, I could run the 900 RPM unit from 45 to 2700 RPM (5 to 180 hz)
I am guessing the first offer could go from 90 to 4200 RPM. Max is stated in the specs.
Which is the better choice?
Karl
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2014
- Messages
- 5,056
I wanted to add one more motor to the list, ABB/Baldor-Reliance are now the same, the nomenclature for the motors does vary but I have used a few of their vector (VFD only) motors on both mills and lathes and they are pretty killer. I also used the Baldor IDNM vector motor on my lathe and pretty much used 2 mechanical speeds, it maintained RPM of +/- 1 regardless of load. I also did some installs with a Lincoln Vector motor's and they also were very impressive as well as the Marathon Black or Blu Max, but the Baldor-Reliance-ABB versions are just beasts,
Many of the eBay sellers have best offer, once you check the shipping cost it is worth making an offer. The Baldor-Reliance IDVSM3774T list price is over 3K.
If you have the ability to get the belt ratio to use a 4 pole (or 6 pole) vector type motor you will have a much wider usable speed range. No matter which motor you use, the ratio of poles to lathe spindle rotation will remain the same, a 900 RPM motor say running the spindle at 450 RPM in a 2:1 ratio would the same as an 1800 RPM with a 4:1 ratio. I have seen a number of discussions in this regard, the more important factor is the usable speed range that you stay within the permitted operating range and can generate the needed torque and Hp. Although we talk about constant torque ratio, a 1000:1 doesn't get you anywhere if you need Hp, and the converse is that most motors 60 Hz Hp motors start to loose Hp above 90Hz and fall flat on their face at 2X their base speed. Inverter motors may have the insulation rating to handle VFD drives, but not the performance bandwidth of a vector motors. Vector motors are wound differently and have the ability to drive them with higher overload. I typically run mine at 180% as long as it is not long term. Yo are also limited with a TEFC types to cooling issues below around 15Hz.
The 6 and 8 pole motors have much more inertia, and typically unless they are a vector type motor I would not run them more than 1.5X their base speed. A 4 pole can typically be run to 2X, but performance will drop off after about 1.5X their base speed. Vector motors on the other hand will retain full Hp up to their rated speed, and will have flat torque down to almost 0 speed (but no Hp). I have put 2, 3 and 5 Hp vector motors on lathes the motors were typically rated conservatively at 3X their base speed. In most cases I did not have the belting ratio to maximize their top speed. The 10 Hp lIDVSM3774T is rated for for a maximum speed of 4500 RPM and could probably be pushed to 5000 RPM. So given lets say a lower bound of 15 Hz to 150 Hz (or 160) you have a 10 fold speed variation and still have 2.5 Hp at the lowest speed operating point. A regular inverter 900 RPM motor you are probably looking at 15 Hz to maybe 80 Hz. As mentioned the 1200 RPM motor is an option and probably would be fine operating to 3X its base speed.
My vote is the "beast" Baldor-Reliance-IDVSM3774T, but they should all work well
Baldor Reliance IDVSM3774T 10HP 230/460V 1760RPM Inverter Drive Motor *NIB* | eBay
Cat No: IDVSM3774T. 10HP / 1760RPM. Handling fees are subject to change if item(s) are irregular or oversized. This includes securing item with steel banding and shrink wrapping. · Industrial Pallet Racking, shelving and cabinetry.
www.ebay.com
Many of the eBay sellers have best offer, once you check the shipping cost it is worth making an offer. The Baldor-Reliance IDVSM3774T list price is over 3K.
If you have the ability to get the belt ratio to use a 4 pole (or 6 pole) vector type motor you will have a much wider usable speed range. No matter which motor you use, the ratio of poles to lathe spindle rotation will remain the same, a 900 RPM motor say running the spindle at 450 RPM in a 2:1 ratio would the same as an 1800 RPM with a 4:1 ratio. I have seen a number of discussions in this regard, the more important factor is the usable speed range that you stay within the permitted operating range and can generate the needed torque and Hp. Although we talk about constant torque ratio, a 1000:1 doesn't get you anywhere if you need Hp, and the converse is that most motors 60 Hz Hp motors start to loose Hp above 90Hz and fall flat on their face at 2X their base speed. Inverter motors may have the insulation rating to handle VFD drives, but not the performance bandwidth of a vector motors. Vector motors are wound differently and have the ability to drive them with higher overload. I typically run mine at 180% as long as it is not long term. Yo are also limited with a TEFC types to cooling issues below around 15Hz.
The 6 and 8 pole motors have much more inertia, and typically unless they are a vector type motor I would not run them more than 1.5X their base speed. A 4 pole can typically be run to 2X, but performance will drop off after about 1.5X their base speed. Vector motors on the other hand will retain full Hp up to their rated speed, and will have flat torque down to almost 0 speed (but no Hp). I have put 2, 3 and 5 Hp vector motors on lathes the motors were typically rated conservatively at 3X their base speed. In most cases I did not have the belting ratio to maximize their top speed. The 10 Hp lIDVSM3774T is rated for for a maximum speed of 4500 RPM and could probably be pushed to 5000 RPM. So given lets say a lower bound of 15 Hz to 150 Hz (or 160) you have a 10 fold speed variation and still have 2.5 Hp at the lowest speed operating point. A regular inverter 900 RPM motor you are probably looking at 15 Hz to maybe 80 Hz. As mentioned the 1200 RPM motor is an option and probably would be fine operating to 3X its base speed.
My vote is the "beast" Baldor-Reliance-IDVSM3774T, but they should all work well
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2021
- Messages
- 3,271
You basically need to google the manufacturer’s spec by model number on the motors to find the actual range. At least the CT and VT ratings to see what rpm range they warrant. This isn’t provided on ebay. If it is inverter duty rated you can generally assume a max of 10:1 CT allowing you to run down to 1/10th speed (6Hz). The Black Max’s I‘ve seen are rated down to 1000:1 so rrealistically you can turn them as slow as you want.
Here’s the link for the Baldor mentioned above. Rated down to 0Hz at full torque. Baldor spec
Note that while the nameplate says 4500rpm max, the load ratings give a max speed of 2655 rpm. I take that to mean above that rpm it will no longer deliver 10HP.
The Baldor motor also has a built in thermostat that should be wired to the vfd to avoid overheating
Here’s the link for the Baldor mentioned above. Rated down to 0Hz at full torque. Baldor spec
Note that while the nameplate says 4500rpm max, the load ratings give a max speed of 2655 rpm. I take that to mean above that rpm it will no longer deliver 10HP.
The Baldor motor also has a built in thermostat that should be wired to the vfd to avoid overheating
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2014
- Messages
- 2,112
I just noticed that black max motor is located 10 miles from my son's work. I am asking him to stop by and see if the guy will deal using Ben Franklin as the bait.
if not, i will go for that Baldor reliance
THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL THE HELP.
This is my second 10EE and I am rebuilding it into my dream machine.
if not, i will go for that Baldor reliance
THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL THE HELP.
This is my second 10EE and I am rebuilding it into my dream machine.