New PM1228 Lathe erratic dial test readings on spindle and any chuck

[mksj]

I would surmise that the lathe is out of specification, it is new and should not have the spindle deviation you are seeing based on the different assessments you have done. So you will need to work out what is next with QMT/PM. Shipping is a bit of a nightmare these days, I would have refused the shipment with that degree of damage and let the carrier work it out with the QMT/PM.

 

[maticulus]

I would surmise that the lathe is out of specification, it is new and should not have the spindle deviation you are seeing based on the different assessments you have done. So you will need to work out what is next with QMT/PM. Shipping is a bit of a nightmare these days, I would have refused the shipment with that degree of damage and let the carrier work it out with the QMT/PM.

That's my feeling now. I need the person that has been viewing the demos to conclude the same and come up with a solution to correct it. I've read a few good experiences regarding issues being resolved amicably with PM regarding problems with purchased equipment, but I don't have the Matt connection that all of those individuals seemed to have.

 

[matthewsx]

Last I saw from Matt on this thread he was getting ready to go on a vacation (probably well deserved)....

Seeing the damage from shipping you should definitely ask for replacement, refusing delivery would have been good. but too late now. Who knows what happened, and how it affected your machine but you paid for a new, intact product and that's what you should have.

Regardless, you have a ton of good advise in this thread about how to check runout. And, support from a forum sponsor who genuinely seems to care. I'm sure this will get sorted out soon.

Cheers,

John, (absolutely no relation to Matt) Matthews

 

[Flynth]

I would surmise that the lathe is out of specification, it is new and should not have the spindle deviation you are seeing based on the different assessments you have done. So you will need to work out what is next with QMT/PM. Shipping is a bit of a nightmare these days, I would have refused the shipment with that degree of damage and let the carrier work it out with the QMT/PM.

Yes, I didn't realise the erratic nature of it. I thought it was simple runout, but that would disappear in a part turned.

Then I thought maybe the spindle nut is loose, but the author mentioned "adding some preload in accordance with instructions" so that's not it.

After seeing the other video linked on page 1 (of another person with the same lathe getting almost no tenths indicator movement) I have to agree with this conclusion.

Last I saw from Matt on this thread he was getting ready to go on a vacation (probably well deserved)....

Seeing the damage from shipping you should definitely ask for replacement, refusing delivery would have been good. but too late now. Who knows what happened, and how it affected your machine but you paid for a new, intact product and that's what you should have.

Regardless, you have a ton of good advise in this thread about how to check runout. And, support from a forum sponsor who genuinely seems to care. I'm sure this will get sorted out soon.

Cheers,

John, (absolutely no relation to Matt) Matthews

I think so too(that it will get resolved). Hopefully Matt forgets about it while on vacation. I know how stressing it can be to spend good amount of cash on something and get a damaged or otherwise non fully functional product.

Having seen the shipping damage pictures. After a long wait. I probably would've accepted it too if I could peek into that crate and confirm it wasn't hit in the leadscrew (the impact looks low to the side - depending on the side hit it may be just cosmetics). I would take lots of photos and have the seller ship me replacements of damaged parts. I had shipping damage to various big items before(a large air compressor) and where replacement was infeasible and I wanted to keep it I got a partial refund(not related to PM).

However, when such a vital part as spindle is also problematic I think only a replacement will do (unless they have replacement head stocks?). I hope we hear how it was resolved in the end. One only learns the real quality of a company when they have to deal with difficult issues.

 

[maticulus]

Yes, I didn't realise the erratic nature of it. I thought it was simple runout, but that would disappear in a part turned.

Then I thought maybe the spindle nut is loose, but the author mentioned "adding some preload in accordance with instructions" so that's not it.

After seeing the other video linked on page 1 (of another person with the same lathe getting almost no tenths indicator movement) I have to agree with this conclusion.


I think so too(that it will get resolved). Hopefully Matt forgets about it while on vacation. I know how stressing it can be to spend good amount of cash on something and get a damaged or otherwise non fully functional product.

Having seen the shipping damage pictures. After a long wait. I probably would've accepted it too if I could peek into that crate and confirm it wasn't hit in the leadscrew (the impact looks low to the side - depending on the side hit it may be just cosmetics). I would take lots of photos and have the seller ship me replacements of damaged parts. I had shipping damage to various big items before(a large air compressor) and where replacement was infeasible and I wanted to keep it I got a partial refund(not related to PM).

However, when such a vital part as spindle is also problematic I think only a replacement will do (unless they have replacement head stocks?). I hope we hear how it was resolved in the end. One only learns the real quality of a company when they have to deal with difficult issues.

That's what has made it so difficult to really settle on, not only that other 1228 lathes and other are turning sensible, predictable runout using the same methods I've deployed, but that they are doing so without all of the extra effort of warm up and TLC.

Just setup the DTI and "Look what I can do". The stopping point of communication with the PM rep was the acknowledgement of slight play present in the bearings to allow room for warmup and then logically the likely cause being lack of a flush mount of the chuck, which threw me off track long enough to ponder the idea (again), until recalling that the erratic readings were first noted in the spindle itself and then everything attached to it, the adjustable ER40 chuck, the adjustable Ultra 3 jaw chuck and now round stock in the adjustable 3 jaw after being turned.

The damage to the crate was on the back side of the lathe, away from the saddle and only contacted the sheet metal parts, but that doesn't say much about whether it was dropped. The crate was wrapped in plastic apparently after the incident. Funny thing is, when I found out who the shipping company would be, I called PM with concern after reading their reviews.

I'm waiting patiently and being professional hoping to get it resolved.

 

[WobblyHand]

That's what has made it so difficult to really settle on, not only that other 1228 lathes and other are turning sensible, predictable runout using the same methods I've deployed, but that they are doing so without all of the extra effort of warm up and TLC.

Just setup the DTI and "Look what I can do". The stopping point of communication with the PM rep was the acknowledgement of slight play present in the bearings to allow room for warmup and then logically the likely cause being lack of a flush mount of the chuck, which threw me off track long enough to ponder the idea (again), until recalling that the erratic readings were first noted in the spindle itself and then everything attached to it, the adjustable ER40 chuck, the adjustable Ultra 3 jaw chuck and now round stock in the adjustable 3 jaw after being turned.

The damage to the crate was on the back side of the lathe, away from the saddle and only contacted the sheet metal parts, but that doesn't say much about whether it was dropped. The crate was wrapped in plastic apparently after the incident. Funny thing is, when I found out who the shipping company would be, I called PM with concern after reading their reviews.

I'm waiting patiently and being professional hoping to get it resolved.

Although this stinks, it will be resolved. As a FYI, my crate was extremely wrapped in plastic and it was a good thing. That's because I wasn't quite ready for the delivery and the crate had to sit in the weather for quite a few days. And yes, it rained. But no harm because of the wrapping. My crate was a slightly beat up but not like yours.

The spindle is the heart of the lathe, it has to be right. It sounds like a bearing issue of some kind. You will sort it out. PM will make good.

 

[maticulus]

Still waiting on a response from the manufacturer through PM. In the meantime I've been working with break-in procedures and loosening and retightening the preload nut per instructions. The runout has come down some and stabilized a little thanks to member Ken226, who linked to a good video on a similar issue, after helping me figure out why my DRO was reading 1/10 per inch of saddle movement.

I've been searching around for a higher precision bearing to consider. The manual suggests SKF 32011 as a replacement, but that doesn't mean that's what is in it currently. During my search I found this link;

[Hot Item] Cina Manufacturer High Precision Chrome Steel Taper Roller Bearing 32005 32008 30209 32007 30208 30212 32212 32213 32011 25590

Bearing Material: Bearing Steel Packing: Small Plastic Bag+Single Box+Big Plastic Bag+Big C Vibration: V1 V2 V3 V4 Certisificate: Is09000-2008 Tolerance: ABEC-1, ABEC-2 Sample: Available

qdyixinyan.en.made-in-china.com

What if I have one of these made on a Monday.

Link Ken226 provided;

 

[maticulus]

What if I have one of these made on a Monday.

I've been very busy but finally am getting back to addressing the machine. It took several weeks following my initial inquiry of PM about the subject of this thread, but a spec sheet from a Sieg machine was provided to me to check tolerances and excuse some of what I was seeing as being within allowable tolerances, along with all of the other suggestions offered.

I still could not accept that I did not have a simple within-tolerance runout, I have dancing runout that moves, which means no matter how much I tweak the adjustable 3-jaw & 4-jaw chucks I purchased specifically for the purpose of maximal possibility to achieve perfect centricity, I would never be able to achieve it.

I located some new old stock P5 bearings, both tapered roller to be exact because it is my intent to convert the lathe to a double tapered bearing spindle like the the Taiwan made 12x36. I removed the spindle once to take measurements of the bearing housings and seals (which are plastic/nylon, non sealing end caps held in place by paint) because I also intend to convert the spindle bearings to oil bathed. I noted that the belt pulley bore, had been severely galled when the machine was assembled at the factory, hence my self quote above.

I purchased a P4 NSK, 6010 bearing prior to deciding on angular, and installed it on reassembly of the machine. I had pre-marked the spindle at the runout trouble spot. On reassembly, the max point of runout moved about 5 degrees clockwise, but I left the initial mark in place.

The FAG P5 bearing for the chuck end of the spindle finally arrived (Ordered from France), to pair with the P5 URB bearing intended for the tail end. I removed the spindle a second time, and used a clamping style bearing remover to successfully remove the stock bearing without damage.
Both OE bearings are made in China, I can not attest to their quality. Below are pictures of what I found and this is where I am as of this post.

The bearing sleeve rides directly over this rough area of the spindle which extends from the stop point .300" inward, 360 deg. The pictures are at various points around the shaft with one or two duplicates at different angles/closeups.

k




This is the roughest area of the shaft from my observation and coincidentally it lines up with the point of greatest deviation in spindle.








This machine appears to have been assembled rough and in a hurry. The bearing bores in the housing are rough to. There was a piece of swarf about 2" long attached to the inner groove at the clear end of the tape in the first pic on tear down as well. I'll send this new found info to PM and find out what a new spindle costs, as I doubt a replacement would be shipped looking like this. I'm going to call this a "Covid" machine more so than a Monday model, or the "Let's squeeze one more machine out of these inserts". The liquid residue wiped from forward housing was magnetic to the point that a 1//4" dia magnet could be suspended easily from the paper towel it was on. I haven't posted the pic of it.

 

[maticulus]

Here are some of the other pictures taken. I have no idea of what the standard is for what the bore should look like in terms of finish, but there are shiny and dull contact points throughout, apparently born out by the bearing cup surface at both ends.



A good bit of the grease is squeezed into the forward area of the housing away from the bearing. There's not as much as I was expecting to see.



There was very little patience shown on installation of the pulley in my opinion.




This was attached inside the groove.






That magnet has a pretty strong attachment to the residue wiped from the spindle onto that paper towel.

 

[mac1911]

There's no discernable difference I can tell warmed up or cold. I switched to my .0005 DTI and still the reading is erratic and inconsistent, the needle just doesn't swing as far due to the reduction in resolution.

If I can't turn a circle free of the persistent inconsistency in readings no matter where I measure, or mount the DTI stand. I can't maximize the benefit of any of my adjustable chucks, including the 4 jaw. Again it's not the runout, it's the inconsistent boundaries, one rotation is 5 tenths out, and the next might be in excess of .002 and it alternates back and forth in that range randomly.

I was hoping the damage to the tray and panel would be the worst of it, but at this point without any definitive answers at 2 weeks out from receipt for the inconsistent readings and so far nothing back on what the shipping company has to say about the "birth marks" they left on the equipment, I don't feel good at all about having spent $7000, including the Ultra 4 jaw purchased from PM separately ahead of the lathe arrival.

I understand the effects of the rotating components warming up and the effect on tolerances, but no one has come on and said, "My lathe does/did that". I'm still waiting on a response from PM regarding the latest results submitted this morning.





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Part if me ( I know hindsight ) says I would have rejected delivery and and called PM and CC company.
I feel for you with the “support”
Sadly I think there are few sales support employees that actually know about the equipment they are selling , even the “technical” staff is very limited to a degree.
How many workers at PM do you think actually have manual lathe running or manufacturing experience? Sadly you need to let it run its course through the chain of command.

Like mentioned sometimes all companies understand is $$.