New Member From Langley Bc Ready To Start Lathe & Mill Shopping

[milomilo]

pm sent.

Sent you his number.

 

[Kiwi Canuck]

I spent a bit of time today dropping by vendors looking and learning.

I first went to KMS and discovered they still have the King Industrial 12 x36 on the floor at the Coquitlam branch, it was still for sale for $3,799.00 CND
Now that I'm a little more familiar with lathes I was able to look at it and understand what I was looking at, if that makes sense.
The counter staff guy assured me it was made in Taiwan and suggested all the ones with King Industrial were made in Taiwan whereas King Canada was China. (I somehow didn't believe him but I'll verify by calling the HO of King Industrial just to know for sure.)
Back to the lathes on hand, there was also a 10 x22 mini lathe available as well, but after carefully inspecting the 12 x 36 I noticed the castings where the headstock attaches to the base, very poor castings and the bolt washers were on a 15-20 degree angle and the bolts bent because the casting were all uneven and the torque on the bolts bent them.

The amount of Bondo on this lathe was very obvious and the finish (out of view) was just about toddler level with play doh.
Welding on the stand was dismal.
The cross slide and carriage moved quite smoothly and the handles on the cranks felt quite good in the hand and not all wonky like some I've felt, so that was positive.
Chuck was a Sanou which I understand is a Chinese made item, but it was finished very well and stood out from the fit and finish on the lathe, it was actually a really nicely finished item.

Next I went by Busy Bee Tools about 5 mins away, same floor models as 18 months ago when I was last in there.
While there not a single staff member approached me or asked if they could help me, I was in the store for about 20 mins and was the only customer there.

The lathes were certainly lower end and the prices reflect that, the only machine that got my attention was the CX603 Knee Mill, it looked like a better made machine that everything else and was on sale for about $4,800 IIRC.
I checked their website but it does not show in stock.
Most of the floor models are either made in 2010-2012, didn't see anything much newer than that.
It says something for the durability as every floor model appliance or BBQ in Home Depot has almost every knob missing or broken off, and here were several machines 4-5 years old and on display for people like me to play with and they seemed to be holding up OK.

I am slowly learning more as I go and can eliminate most of these offerings unless the budget gets severely crunched.

At around 2PM (5Pm EST) I called QMT and got Matt on the line right away, we had a good chat for about 10 mins and I am in the middle of writing an email to him with my wish list. (Dear Santa ....)

I will need to take a leap of faith at some point but I will at least need to get myself to a point were I am clear on what I'll need to accomplish with these two machines at a minimum and that should help me with my choices.

Now if the people who set the exchange rates can help us out here, it'll make the decision to order the PM machines so much easier.

Thanks for all the input so far.

David.

 

[Hawkeye]

Now, would this be the same Kiwi Canuck from BCCMC? Can't be too many in this province using that handle. Welcome to H-M. These guys can steer you straight on any topic that comes to mind. Most of my machines are quite old, so I might not be much help right now.

 

[Kiwi Canuck]

Now, would this be the same Kiwi Canuck from BCCMC? Can't be too many in this province using that handle. Welcome to H-M. These guys can steer you straight on any topic that comes to mind. Most of my machines are quite old, so I might not be much help right now.

Yes that's me, I have that user name pretty much on all the motorcycle related forums I'm on, GS Resources, ADV Rider, DRRiders and Garage Journal as well.

Good to see familiar names on here.

I did go over to Rusty Bits workshop on Sunday after coffee and I was all over his machines, both older than me though and quizzed him a bit about what I should be looking for.

Cheers,

David.

 

[Hawkeye]

Twisted Twin would be another good one to touch base with. He lives in Langley and has machines at home as well as a t work.

 

[Kiwi Canuck]

OK, so I've received an email response from Matt and he gave me a very detailed response with regard to the 3 options I requested. (I added the 12x36 lathe & PM32 Mill package)

I have probably read (and watched videos) for 30 hours on lathes alone since I first posted and are finally starting to see through the fog.

I have been flip flopping back and forward, yes 120VAC machines (PM1127 + PM727), easy to install, reasonably light to move around will fit in my garage, up and running quickly, OK lets order..............

But what about the PM1236 & PM932 and as Matt mentioned, is only a grand more, better value, all righty then.................but where will I put them, no 220VAC in the garage where the machines will go and will require trenching outside around the building unless I run surface conduit inside the fully finished garage.

Well if I'm going to go 220VAC I'll need to run new wire and electrical, so might as well go with the better machines PM1340GT & PM935....................

Matt suggested something I never thought of, a PM1236 and a PM935 if I was challenged with the extra cost of the PM1340GT, so that added another factor that I'd not thought of and I've been looking online and reading about that lathe today.

Wow this rabbit hole just got deeper after reading about 3 phase motors conversions with a VFD on a PM1236.

I have not even started to get into the full landed costs for each option but did find out that Canada has a zero duty on metal lathes which is nice to know.

HS commodity code 8458.99.0000
https://www.dutycalculator.com/dc/1...rting-metal-lathes-from-china-to-canada-is-0/

Looks Like USA has 4.2% Import Duty on metal lathes.

OK back to the studying.

 

[petertha]

I'm in Calgary & one of the contributers on our local metalhead forum from Edmonton area bought a PM932 mill from Matt. He had nothing but great things to say about his service & shipping to Canada. I have a King 14x40 late 90's vintage, made in Taiwan. At the time Modern Tool (Calgary) was a King distributer & that's where where I purchased my lathe & RF-45 mill (very similar to PM932 mentioned). But Modern sells their own line of China connection machines & have for some time. This is the current smallest 14x40 they carry. I thought it looked ok, a little rough around the corners compared to mine, but nothing brutal. I wasn't enamoured about the dials & unfortunately that's what your hands are always on. http://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-model-c0636a-x-1000-lathe/
The biggest factor to me is when you need parts & service. There are some many +/- experiences out there but my own view is BusyBee/KMS King-China is a notch below the aforementioned vendors.

Some other considerations to hep melt your credit card (but for all the right reasons!)

- Consider a DRO. Sometimes the vendors can pass on savings & do the mounting & bracketry before delivering & might end up as same/lower cost when you factor buying it separately & the 'joy' of doing it yourself. Once that heavy muther machine is in place, you either need a way to get in behind it for certain mounting, or made provisions so you can move around a bit to accommodate. DRO's make machining so much more enjoyable. They save time, reduces boo-boos & mitigate some of the dial quality & any backlash issues on lesser machines. I ran my lathe & mill both ways & I would really miss my DRO now.

- if you are contemplating doing taper turning (ie. requiring a taper attachment) I suspect you have to make that decision now. Retrofitting them is a PITA & not cost effective. At least that was the case on my King 14x40 & I think that still holds true today, but check. Its not just a bolt-on thing, the cross slide & leadscrew assembly is different. There are days I wish I sprung for it, but those were my budget realities at the time.

- Really look hard at the stand. Sometimes they are decent & sometimes they are sheetmetal headaches. I had one welded for my lathe from 2" steel tubing & adjustable rubber feet. It's very solid & torsionally rigid & didn't cost that much. My RF-45 mill has the bolt-together tin stand & I regret not making one. It buzzes & vibrates, is less solid & is difficult to store anything in that goofy cabinet anyway.

- I also cheaped out & did not get the lathe backsplash which was sold separately at the time. Another dumb move on my part. I'm not a sheet metal welder guy. Keep the swarf & oil spittle off your walls, easier cleanup.

-220 wasn't a big deal, just money & an electrician. If you are like most of us metalheads, the family might grow one day with mill, TIG welder... heck even hobby compressors are coming that way now.

Good luck with your journey & keep us posted!

 

[tmarks11]

...PM1127...PM1236....PM1340GT and ...PM727....PM935........

Welcome to machine buying! It is something we all go through.... for only $500 I can buy this.... and only another $500....

And then the online forum weighs in with "for only another $1000"....

wrt PM1127 vs PM1236 or PM1340GT:

PM1236 (or larger) has some very huge advantages:
1. Full Quick Change Gear Box (QCGB). The smaller machines are crippled.
2. Cam Lock Chuck. Huge deal. Swap out chucks in 30 seconds.

WRT 110V vs 220V. You could always put a 110V motor on a 1236 lathe. The downside is that a 2 HP motor fuel load current draw is about 19A, which probably exceeds (or is close to exceeding) the 110V circuit that you have installed. And you won't find a 115V inverter that would drive a three phase motor larger than 1 HP.

Surface conduit isn't a bad look. And really, it isn't that hard to run wiring in the walls either. I have put in 5 220V outlets in my fully-finished garage. Definitely no need to trench of either of those options are available.

 

[Muskt]

I started with a Grizz 9x20 about 11 years ago. It did most of what I desired--Still, I wanted bigger. I acquired a Grizz mill--a bit smaller than the 932--Installed a VFD on it & had great fun using it. Retired & moved from Alaska to the USA. Sold the lathe & mill cuz it was too expensive to ship.

Did all the research things you have done, & settled on the PM12x36 (no DRO) + the PM932PDF with the installed DRO. I am satisfied with both machines. I had a few issues with surface finish on the lathe, & finally settled on a VFD & motor swap. Much improved surface finish--Changing the RPM by only a small amount can considerably change the finish. I have had no issues with the mill. During the surface finish time, Matt was planning a weekend in Ocean City MD. He offered to stop by my home in Delaware to check out the machine--about 45 minutes out of his way. I turned down the offer, but I firmly believe that that offer speaks volumes about him & his devotion to his machines & customers.

Back to the lathe. I am much more satisfied with it now, and feel that the VFD conversion was worth the money (about $675 USD).

As to the camlock vs direct mount for the chuck-I have a 3 jaw, a 4 jaw, & an ER-32 collet chuck. It is quicker to change, and generally less of a PITA than a direct mount with bolts, nuts, ropes, & bungee cords; however, if you are not prone to changing 2 or 3 times per project, well, maybe it isn't such a big deal for you. I LIKE THE CAMLOCK!!!

If you have a nicely finished floor in the proposed shop location, the 12x36 & the 932 can easily be moved by one person & an engine hoist. I am nearly 70, & uncrated, assembled, & placed both machines 100% by my self. I will not speculate on doing that with a 13x40 or the 935 because I have never seen them.

From all the posts here on the forum, the 13x40 & the 935 are superior machines. They come with a superior price tag, also. Does that mean that the others are inadequate or junk?? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Both of my machines needed a bit of tweaking to get them up to my desired degree of accuracy and usability. However, I am a home shop tinkerer and do not use them for income purposes. But, then think of all the shops that are running very old & possibly severely worn machines. The quality of work produced more than likely is a result of the operators skill and dedication than to the country of origin or color of the paint on the machines.

I would recommend that you base your decision on all of the factors and pointers that have been posted here and then enjoy your new tools and have fun using them.

Jerry in Delaware

 

[Kiwi Canuck]

I'm in Calgary & one of the contributers on our local metalhead forum from Edmonton area bought a PM932 mill from Matt. He had nothing but great things to say about his service & shipping to Canada. I have a King 14x40 late 90's vintage, made in Taiwan. At the time Modern Tool (Calgary) was a King distributer & that's where where I purchased my lathe & RF-45 mill (very similar to PM932 mentioned). But Modern sells their own line of China connection machines & have for some time. This is the current smallest 14x40 they carry. I thought it looked ok, a little rough around the corners compared to mine, but nothing brutal. I wasn't enamoured about the dials & unfortunately that's what your hands are always on. http://www.moderntool.com/products/modern-model-c0636a-x-1000-lathe/
The biggest factor to me is when you need parts & service. There are some many +/- experiences out there but my own view is BusyBee/KMS King-China is a notch below the aforementioned vendors.

Some other considerations to hep melt your credit card (but for all the right reasons!)

- Consider a DRO. Sometimes the vendors can pass on savings & do the mounting & bracketry before delivering & might end up as same/lower cost when you factor buying it separately & the 'joy' of doing it yourself. Once that heavy muther machine is in place, you either need a way to get in behind it for certain mounting, or made provisions so you can move around a bit to accommodate. DRO's make machining so much more enjoyable. They save time, reduces boo-boos & mitigate some of the dial quality & any backlash issues on lesser machines. I ran my lathe & mill both ways & I would really miss my DRO now.

- if you are contemplating doing taper turning (ie. requiring a taper attachment) I suspect you have to make that decision now. Retrofitting them is a PITA & not cost effective. At least that was the case on my King 14x40 & I think that still holds true today, but check. Its not just a bolt-on thing, the cross slide & leadscrew assembly is different. There are days I wish I sprung for it, but those were my budget realities at the time.

-220 wasn't a big deal, just money & an electrician. If you are like most of us metalheads, the family might grow one day with mill, TIG welder... heck even hobby compressors are coming that way now.

Good luck with your journey & keep us posted!

petertha, thanks for taking the time to comment and give me feedback on your experiences.

Sometimes what doesn't work or what you would have done differently helps confirm my direction or helps justify the additional cost outlay.

I usually don't do this much research when buying equipment or toys but I'm enjoying the journey and info I'm gathering as I'll need to know most of this anyway.

I also don't usually have a set budget either, as the right equipment costs what it costs, I try to keep costs in the background until I figure out who I'm buying from and which level of equipment is recommended.

Once all that's figured out I can then see if it makes sense financially.

I'd rather have something on my wish list than a reminder on how not to buy. I've done it enough times to know the feeling unfortunately.

I have chosen QMT as the company I will purchase from it's just a matter of making the right choice on the machines.

I hear you on KMS as a vendor, we buy a lot of tools and equipment from them, we have 12 trucks on the road and a lot of our tools come from them, but I have had some very frustrating experiences with their customer service and repair dept. lately.

I will still shop at KMS but I'm not buying my lathe and mill from them.

I d0 have 220 in the garage and my compressor is 220, which I was able to borrow the 220 from an unused hot water heater in the mechanical room (had both NG and Electric HW heaters) but I don't have any 220 where I need it.

The actual electrical work is not the a big deal, as I can do all the work myself as I renovated/flipped houses for 20 years, it's just that I'm really fussy about the way it's installed at my house and wouldn't let just anyone install additional services.

Pretty sure I've eliminated the smaller machines as an option so looks like I'll have some wiring to do in my future, also pretty sure I'll go with 3 phase motors and VFDs as well based on the majority of posts here.
Fortunate to have a Kiwi guy from my Classic MC Club who is familiar with them and would be willing to help with setup.

Hawkeye, I spoke with Twisted Twin at coffee this morning, he confirmed all same info here, go with 220VAC, VFD and bigger is better.

Cheers,

David