Needing more than a spark test?

At 1mS, it's all rather beautiful. I will have to set the voltage tolerance tighter, It's near zero pA TIA input, but the DC .op is at -2.8nV. The transient simulation gives it as something else, still in the nano-volts. I am working the thing hard, trying to be mean to it. I think this type of circuit has a good chance. The integrator is not going to drift. It will keep pumping itself up and down, fighting the offset.

TIA-Amp3-wobbly-v3.png
 
Hi Bruce - I tried it at 10mS and finally at 20mS. It just boringly flatlines at -2.87nV all the way.
Changing R10 to something lower will increase gain of the integrator loop. There is room to play here.
It might be good enough for you. I am thinking we will likely run into more significant stuff when the whole thing is together, right up to the diode.
 
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Hi Bruce - I tried it at 10mS and finally at 20mS. It just boringly flatlines at -2.87nV all the way.
It might be good enough for you. I am thinking we will likely run into more significant stuff when the whole thing is together, right up to the diode.
Sounds encouraging. Real hardware sometimes has a mind of it's own. Have to say, it's outstanding results, so keep on going!
 
Hi Bruce - I tried it at 10mS and finally at 20mS. It just boringly flatlines at -2.87nV all the way.
Changing R10 to something lower will increase gain of the integrator loop. There is room to play here.
It might be good enough for you. I am thinking we will likely run into more significant stuff when the whole thing is together, right up to the diode.
Great stuff, considering the high DC gain of the signal path!

One thing I'd be curious about is the voltage on the output of the integrator. That amplifier might run out of headroom & once that happens the offset will go up very rapidly.
 
I finished machining my ABS focus ring and a teflon form I will use to hold the sources in place while gluing them up. The teflon rod is a friction fit to the ID of the focus ring. Epoxy won't stick to it so after it sets up I can just push the rod out. That's the plan, anyway. I really liked machining the ABS. The swarf from a lot of plastics is really long and can gum up the finish when it gathers itself around the work, so this time I vacuumed up the swarf as it was generated, and that worked really well.

The current design for my focus ring actually has its smallest ID noticeably larger than the 14mm diam hole in my lead shielding plate. It's all about keeping the iron x-ray photons coming from the source disks away from the detector.

The teflon is a remnant from a work project, having to do with hot red fuming nitric acid, the same kind of stuff that's used for rocket fuel :)

Hey! My SMT rework stuff just arrived, along with the solder flux and polyimide tape! It looks like it's one of those "some assembly required" things so hopefully all the little assembly parts were included. I'll let you all know.
 
I don't know of anyone here will find it useful for simulations but I have attached a model I found awhile back for the AD8655. The file extension will need to be changed to ".cir".
 

Attachments

Great stuff, considering the high DC gain of the signal path!

One thing I'd be curious about is the voltage on the output of the integrator. That amplifier might run out of headroom & once that happens the offset will go up very rapidly.
You are right in that the one I have more or less thrown together is not quite a real classic integrator, partly hijacked from another circuit. It still needs some care, and more normal integrator would have a resistor across C4. I will try and explain.

It's not just an integrator that has to keep "getting lucky", to not add itself up onto a rail. It's an integrator in a control loop, that pumps itself up and down, but at a pace determined by it's R and C. This is similar to the "I" in a regular PID controller, with the output never satisfied, forever unstable, oscillating about the set point.

It is a loop devoted to undoing everything the gain opamp is trying to do for it's non-inverting input, insisting the output be zero. With the integrator in there it becomes a thing that still insists the output be zero, but fails to do it instantly, blunted by the integrator pole time constant. The integrator ends up holding a charge just sufficient to cancel any offset building up on the U4 (Vout). It has no chance of stopping a passing 20uS pulse.

Just like with any PID controller, if the gain of the integrator is taken too high, it will cause the loop to go into mad oscillation. Putting an integrator in a loop comes with the minus sign, which is a 180° phase shift delay, the immediate recipe for an oscillator, and this is what does happen. It will pump itself up and down around the set point, in the same way a temperature controller oscillates in a gentle, damped, controlled way.
Of course, a slow responding thing like an oven has a very low natural frequency, so there is plenty of time to have a control loop with a bandwidth at least two octaves faster.

The ad hoc bias remover
Now we come to the "opportunistic" bias removing integrator. To start with, the opamp has only -2fA to 4fA input bias. A 100nF capacitor could stay charged for a long time at that rate. Then also, it has a 500MHz GBW. The opamp could easily take off on it's own at VHF frequencies, and a 100nF capacitor in it's feedback is an invitation to bang between the rails, were it not for the big resistors.

The inverting input R is 10MΩ. That time constant is 67% of a whole second. 0.159Hz is long-term!

Then consider the non-inverting input. There is a 100pF capacitor C5 to charge via the 10MΩ resistor. The CR product is 0.001sec. The roll-off is at 159Hz. Anything much faster is not going to move the integrator.

Then there is the (I think unwise) 10K (R9) with 100nF (C6) lowpass. Another pole at 159Hz? C6 is a nearly decoupler.

Finally, there is the (low) fractional gain for it's effect. Through U6 it has gain=1, and through U4, it has gain 0.22.

Of course, there is room to explore it more. Some of the circuit still has RC filters baggage from where I got it from, but when I tried it in a reasonably hardball checked out simulation, it started to look effective. I do notice that results are worse if the correction is applied to the U2 stage further back. The loop would be trying to fix the offset via gain 2300.

So far, opamp stuff I have simulated has always "just worked", except for stupid accidents and stumbles, like mistaken values, or wrong IC, or putting a resistor where a capacitor should be.

What about "stretched" pulses?
I guess it might need some rework, but probably not. Even pulses slowed up to take (say) 300uS would still be too fast to bother it. It should be OK.
 
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One thing I'd be curious about is the voltage on the output of the integrator. That amplifier might run out of headroom & once that happens the offset will go up very rapidly.
My apologies - I managed not to answer your main question.
The integrator U1 settles at -1.25mV at it's output after about 4mS, and stays there, this being the amount needed to cancel the built up offsets.
These are input offsets from U4, and driver U6, plus offsets that had gain built up in TIA U3, with inverting amplifier U2.

TIA-Amp3-wobbly-U1op.png
 
Beer can --> aluminium and thin --> No good!
Rattle can of grey primer --> magnet sticks --> Pity it still has about 200mL of paint in there.
Wynn's "Viscotene" tenacious All Weather Lubricant --> magnet sticks --> can empty = Yay! --> CANDIDATE :)

Diameter = 66mm.
Concave domed pressure shape in bottom. Hmm.. that might be useful!
Yes - this is about melting a lead lump. I propose not to be pouring anything. Melt it in the can.

Expansion coefficient of steel is 11.7 e-6/°C
Expansion coefficient of lead is 29.3 e-6/°C
Lead melts at 327.5
Lose about 20C to get the delta. (307C ?)
Fractional change on 66mm = 29.3e-6 x 66mm x 307 = 0.633mm or about 0.025"
The steel would be 11.7/29.3 of that, so 0.252mm or about 0.0095"
The gap on cooling is perhaps 0.378mm or 0.015".

That's about 0.19mm, or 7.5 thousandths per side. It might just fall out!
If not, I am pretty sure I can "persuade" the steel off of it! :grin:
 
Beer can --> aluminium and thin --> No good!
Rattle can of grey primer --> magnet sticks --> Pity it still has about 200mL of paint in there.
Wynn's "Viscotene" tenacious All Weather Lubricant --> magnet sticks --> can empty = Yay! --> CANDIDATE :)

Diameter = 66mm.
Concave domed pressure shape in bottom. Hmm.. that might be useful!
Yes - this is about melting a lead lump. I propose not to be pouring anything. Melt it in the can.

Expansion coefficient of steel is 11.7 e-6/°C
Expansion coefficient of lead is 29.3 e-6/°C
Lead melts at 327.5
Lose about 20C to get the delta. (307C ?)
Fractional change on 66mm = 29.3e-6 x 66mm x 307 = 0.633mm or about 0.025"
The steel would be 11.7/29.3 of that, so 0.252mm or about 0.0095"
The gap on cooling is perhaps 0.378mm or 0.015".

That's about 0.19mm, or 7.5 thousandths per side. It might just fall out!
If not, I am pretty sure I can "persuade" the steel off of it! :grin:
Make sure your "can" is crimped shut or formed from one piece. If it is soldered, the bottom could fall off! I don't know how easy it is to melt in a "tin can", I have only melted lead in a small cast iron bowl like thing, or in a proper melting pot. Just recently found a small graphite crucible, that I probably used for melting lead. Wishing you a boring and unexciting time casting.

Think it will take a bit to get the initial melt going. Once you have some liquid lead, slowly feed in more metal into the can. Flux if the lead is really looking dross like. You can use a small bit of wax from a candle for this. It will smoke and then burn. Definitely an outdoor and well ventilated activity.
 
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