How cheap should one get with carbide tool holders ?

[extropic]

I have a set of holders I purchased from PM when I bought my lathe and I had been using their inserts, last friday I stopped at the tool shop that I use and handed the counter guy an insert, told him I was using it on 1018, 1045 and some 4140 and he asked if I was open to suggestions to which I said yes. The inserts he sold me, 80 bucks for 10, are sooooo much better, night and day difference in cut, chips and finish....

Congratulations!

Because I'm not anywhere near Katy Texas,
Because not all "counter guys" are created equal,
Because you didn't specify (by dimension, shape or part number) either the existing tool holder or inset,
Because you didn't specify (by brand name and part number, shape or grade) the new insert,
all I can do is be pleased that you are pleased.

On the other hand, if you could be bothered to fill in the blanks, I wonder how many readers could take away some useful information?

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Beat me to it...I was trying to think of the right adjective for him!

I am a bit of a wordsmith.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

The questions I always have when I see a post like this is why buy the cheapest stuff you can find? Why not buy the good stuff?
I don't have a lot of money. So I can't buy new, good tools and equipment.
But I can be patient, defer gratification, pick and choose carefully and watch auctions, sales, Marketplace and Craigslist for the good stuff and when it shows up I buy it then.

For home use and work (I do the Tool&die thing) I look at it like this.

If I'm buying it, my $10 insert holder works well enough, and if I crash it, it might cost me another $10 plus $1 for the insert, or I might get lucky a couple times.

If I were using a $60 Kennemetal insert holder and crash it, I'm out $10 for the insert and usually another $10 for the hard backer insert, for roughly the same amount of work done.

But that's just me.

For some things, prices strongly correlate with quality, for some other things the correlation is weak.

Given that machining requires zillions of tools and accessories, I like to spend where it matters most.

Every time I spend less where it matters less, I can spend more where it matters most.

I suspect that tool holders are the kinds of item where the "law of diminishing returns" applies: once you pay enough to weed out the lower bracket, the price/quality ratio can get "good enough", and paying 5x the amount will only improve quality by a marginal amount.

I also suspect that premium prices mostly gets you the QA and predictability, which is well worth the money for professional shops where errors can get costly. As a hobbyist, I don't mind doing a bit of QA, especially when I can return stuff at no cost if I find a defect.

There are dozens of other tools for which I have the same question: what is the accuracy (and repeatability) difference between a Starret telescopic gauge that costs $300, and one that costs $30 ?

I'm going to let you in on one of my professional secrets.



I call them snap gauges and I don't care what anyone else thinks. It wasn't until I started watching U Toob videos and reading the comments that I ever realized just how bent armchair machinists get over petty things.

My beat to hell 80yr old set of B&S snap gauges work just as well as anything else I have ever come across, because I know them like their part of my body and how to properly use them and take a measurement from them.

Oh, and I have also been known to scribe lines with my calipers.

But again, that's just me.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

Congratulations!

Because I'm not anywhere near Katy Texas,
Because not all "counter guys" are created equal,
Because you didn't specify (by dimension, shape or part number) either the existing tool holder or inset,
Because you didn't specify (by brand name and part number, shape or grade) the new insert,
all I can do is be pleased that you are pleased.

On the other hand, if you could be bothered to fill in the blanks, I wonder how many readers could take away some useful information?

I thought my point was clear, its the inserts, the holders simply need to be rigid and fit the inserts, it was the answer to the question which was asked.... But I will glad to get that information for you....

 

[great white]

Perhaps we should all remeber the web site is titled HOBBY machinist, not journeyman/professional/commercial machinist…..

Nothing wrong with the more expensive “pro” tools. I’d have em if I could justify the costs. But spending 90-100 bucks on an insert holder is just not justifiable when plinking in my own garage when a “lower quality” (ie: less expensive) holder will do the jobs I want. I will buy the “expensive” stuff if I can find it used and still in good ahape though. But thise are few and far between. Most “pro quality” stuff is beat to crap by the time it shows up used, unless you get lucky and find a place thats closing out and liquidating (never happens around here).

Time to “unwatch” thread. Have fun gents….

 

[ChazzC]

LOL! That’s been exactly my experience with professional machinists as well.
If you really want to tick them off, start talking about how great your sub 2 ton lathe is. Lol

I guess I deal with the wrong successful, talented, professional machinists: the ones I know (and have known) are always interested in what I had made, what I had to say, give constructive feedback and more than willing to help. They may ask that I wait until they have some time, but that’s about all the pushback I’ve ever received.

 

[Dabbler]

I never get paid for my machining work. I have both mid-range offshore holders and Kennemetal ones. I've never been disappointed with the K stuff, it is very pricey, and some of my holders only take proprietary K inserts, but the inserts last a LOONG time. So I'm happy there.

I have a mix of Banggood holders, Accusize holders and a pair from Amazon. none of these are the 'cheapest of the cheap'. All have performed very well - for their price point. One of the Amazon no name holders has too soft threads, so it has been chucked. The Accusize holders and the Amazon inserts for it have performed very, very well. Those are a WNMG 432 18mm RH tool and a WNMG 432 3/4" boring bar. Very happy.

My Banggood holders are mostly lathe tools in 16mm or 18mm and are TPMG332 and CCMT 300 series. I think they are lower quality than the Accusize. Even with expensive SECO or Kennemetal inserts the BG holders get more breakage - I never wear out the cutting edge, the insert breaks in half. I don't see this on the K tools or the Accusize tools.

The good news for the BG holders is that if I am not in a hurry, I can do very good work with them, slowly, and wear out the inserts. I usually use 2ish dollar inserts with the BG holders nowadays. These include RH and LH turning tools and cutoff holders. So I am happy with the price/functionality tradeoff on these as well, I just use them a little more cautiously.

I have 3 lathes and I cannot afford to outfit all of them with K tools, so I've diversified. I 100% agree that you should buy your holders one at a time, choosing the holder for function and insert type. Make sure you can get inserts for it in the future. The worst value is those sets where they need 5 different types of inserts. Lunacy. Sheer lunacy.

The only tool I want and don't have is a holder for a 1/2 inch button insert (400 series?) I can see a lot of use for one in the future.

 

[JimDawson]

I have been buying the Accusize holders from Amazon for both my 13x40 Jet manual, and my Hardinge CNC, no problems at all with one exception. The Accusize parting tool holders are not up to the task for the CNC lathe, that gets a $150 Iscar holder and a Iscar GTN3-IC328 insert. We still occasionally break a holder but get 1000's of parts between problems. We change out the insert when we see a surface finish issue, and inspect the insert every 50 parts or so. We keep a couple spare Accusize parting holders around for the Jet lathe just in case.

For manual lathe inserts just the standard inserts from Amazon or Shars. We're not doing production work on the Jet so no special inserts required. I normally keep both Aluminum and SS inserts in stock and use the SS inserts on all metals. On the CNC lathe, We just kept trying different inserts until we found the ones that gave us the best combination of surface finish and tool life in our application. We normally get 100's of parts out of an edge. They are Mitsubishi Materials inserts, don't remember the number, but they are around $18/insert. The Aluminum inserts almost never wear out, but occasionally break. The CNC lathe runs about 60 hrs a week, so it's making a lot of parts.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

The worst value is those sets where they need 5 different types of inserts. Lunacy. Sheer lunacy.

The only tool I want and don't have is a holder for a 1/2 inch button insert (400 series?) I can see a lot of use for one in the future.

Agreed.

I bought a set from BG that takes 4 different inserts, but that includes threading and cutoff which your not going to get away from.

The sets that are at the opposite end of the spectrum are the ones that have all the same triangle inserts set at odd angles. These would seem to limit your work envelope or at least make you change your toolpost angle repeatedly.

I recently acquired a .400 button insert holder and inserts and it’s amazing.

I can take a .200 cut in A2 on our morisiki like nothing, it just peels off a big ole honkin chip.

Loving it!

 

[Dabbler]

I recently acquired a .400 button insert holder and inserts and it’s amazing.

Can you share details? I am thinking of using it on a 15X60 LeBlond. What size is your Mori Seiki?