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Considering Lathe Downsizing
- Thread starter tmenyc
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2019
- Messages
- 485
I couldn’t agree more. The 10EE are fine lathes, more rigid than the Hardinge but substantially heavier. For the work you describe either will be a joy.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
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- 7,495
How are you with electronic stuff? Asking because a switch from QCGB to manual gears is a jump. Might consider adding an ELS to your downsized lathe. I did that for my 10x22 and love it. My 10x22 used e-clips to retain several gears and they had a strange tendency to fly away when changing gears. Eventually, after grubbing about looking for them on a rough floor many a time, I decided to convert to an ELS. Highly recommended.
As a person who started with a 7x16 from LMS, my 10x22 is quite a bit more rigid. Stuff that's hard to accomplish on the mini is a whole lot easier, like internal threading. My mini has difficulty doing internal threading at diameters greater than 20mm, because OXA tooling capacity is limited, I can only use a 1/2" bar. Tried making a spider on the mini and couldn't finish it due to the chatter in the threads. Finished the job easily on the bigger lathe. No chatter.
I have kept both lathes. Sometimes an operation is easier on one vs the other, or I don't have the tooling for that lathe. My mini sits on the top of my tool chest, whereas the 10x22 is on its own stand. I fully understand about the space issue, I have the same problem, it's a bigger room, but it's filled with other stuff so there's not much room for the machines or myself. Having a lalley column there also restricts where things can go. My walls are granite, and the shop is below grade, so I can't hang things on the wall. But somehow we all persevere and do the best we can.
As a person who started with a 7x16 from LMS, my 10x22 is quite a bit more rigid. Stuff that's hard to accomplish on the mini is a whole lot easier, like internal threading. My mini has difficulty doing internal threading at diameters greater than 20mm, because OXA tooling capacity is limited, I can only use a 1/2" bar. Tried making a spider on the mini and couldn't finish it due to the chatter in the threads. Finished the job easily on the bigger lathe. No chatter.
I have kept both lathes. Sometimes an operation is easier on one vs the other, or I don't have the tooling for that lathe. My mini sits on the top of my tool chest, whereas the 10x22 is on its own stand. I fully understand about the space issue, I have the same problem, it's a bigger room, but it's filled with other stuff so there's not much room for the machines or myself. Having a lalley column there also restricts where things can go. My walls are granite, and the shop is below grade, so I can't hang things on the wall. But somehow we all persevere and do the best we can.
If the problem is lifting and moving things like chucks, I would consider installing a small hoist in length of Unitrac on your ceiling above the lathe, and use it for lifting and moving stuff. Even directly screwed into ceiling joists, these have a capacity of several hundred pounds and a low profile (depending on the hoist you get)--I think mine would probably lift your Logan lathe (if it's really just 500 pounds) without danger. (But that depends on how much you trust those ceiling joists). I use mine for chucks routinely, and ended up putting a cheapie electric hoist on it.
A similar suggestion that requires less construction would be a Sky Hook toolpost-mounted crane. These only weight a little over 20 pounds and can be lifted and placed onto a toolpost for handling the chuck or tailstock. They also have wall-mounted models that you could install behind the lathe.
Every one of the little 7" lathes I've looked at up close looked like scale models of a lathe to me. A 7" something might fit in them, but honestly they look more like a 3" lathe capable of turning steel up to half an inch. I'm sure their fans will roast me for saying that. If I needed a lathe in that size class and had the money, I'd look for a quality lathe intended for small applications, such as a Clausing CT-series 6" lathe, or a Hardinge HLV, or, if those are too big, something like a Shaublin. Bring your checkbook for all of these, but that should also tell you something. Sherline is a possibility, but you'll miss the rigidity you had with your Logan. Even with those, you'll spend a lot of time figuring out your work procedures with those machines, compared to what you have. With a Chinese machine, you'll have to add to that time the additional time it takes to solve its problems.
Rather than wasting life-minutes tuning up and retooling a new lathe, or even just figuring out how to make it work appropriately for your application, I'd rather invest a fraction of that time and money installing lifting aids to solve the material handling problem.
Rick "assisted living" Denney
A similar suggestion that requires less construction would be a Sky Hook toolpost-mounted crane. These only weight a little over 20 pounds and can be lifted and placed onto a toolpost for handling the chuck or tailstock. They also have wall-mounted models that you could install behind the lathe.
Every one of the little 7" lathes I've looked at up close looked like scale models of a lathe to me. A 7" something might fit in them, but honestly they look more like a 3" lathe capable of turning steel up to half an inch. I'm sure their fans will roast me for saying that. If I needed a lathe in that size class and had the money, I'd look for a quality lathe intended for small applications, such as a Clausing CT-series 6" lathe, or a Hardinge HLV, or, if those are too big, something like a Shaublin. Bring your checkbook for all of these, but that should also tell you something. Sherline is a possibility, but you'll miss the rigidity you had with your Logan. Even with those, you'll spend a lot of time figuring out your work procedures with those machines, compared to what you have. With a Chinese machine, you'll have to add to that time the additional time it takes to solve its problems.
Rather than wasting life-minutes tuning up and retooling a new lathe, or even just figuring out how to make it work appropriately for your application, I'd rather invest a fraction of that time and money installing lifting aids to solve the material handling problem.
Rick "assisted living" Denney
I just read this again, and realized that lifting is not the only issue. But I would submit that a smaller lathe will not reduce work effort for things like tightening chucks or operating the handle on a toolpost. If those are really an issue for your, it may be that you'll need some healing and regaining of strength before any lathe operations will work for your. I'm assuming that you are already in the care of a good physical therapist--I would suggest (if you haven't already done so) bringing your goals to him and working on a program to restore that functional capability. That might also take less time than dealing with a new lathe that might not really solve your problems anyway.
Rick "but still look at lifting aids" Denney
Gentlemen, this is really very helpful.
Wobbly, the ELS is very interesting indeed. Please point me to what you installed?
Re the Monarch 10EE, that is one beautiful lathe, but its cost and size far exceeds the resources I have availble for this project.
Re installing a hoist in my ceiling, I thought of that first! But, we live in a 1938 apartment building on a rent-stabilized lease, which makes living here affordable; we've been in this apartment since 1978. I would have to get my landlord to approve that project; absent his approval or doing it without his approval would instantly violate the lease and put us in a rental market at triple what we're paying.
Re installing the Skyhook, I've explored that as well! They're wonderful, for sure, and sort of affordable. However, that would only help with lifting and positioning chucksl, not all of the other work at the lathe that requires pretty solid strength.
RW Denney, finally, I am under the care of an expert physiotherapist, who works closely with my surgeon and really understands where I want to go with strength and mobility. In addition, today I return to the care of my long-term personal trainer, who also gets my needs and has developed a plan that was approved by the PT.
Any experience here with the LMS 7350?
Tim
Wobbly, the ELS is very interesting indeed. Please point me to what you installed?
Re the Monarch 10EE, that is one beautiful lathe, but its cost and size far exceeds the resources I have availble for this project.
Re installing a hoist in my ceiling, I thought of that first! But, we live in a 1938 apartment building on a rent-stabilized lease, which makes living here affordable; we've been in this apartment since 1978. I would have to get my landlord to approve that project; absent his approval or doing it without his approval would instantly violate the lease and put us in a rental market at triple what we're paying.
Re installing the Skyhook, I've explored that as well! They're wonderful, for sure, and sort of affordable. However, that would only help with lifting and positioning chucksl, not all of the other work at the lathe that requires pretty solid strength.
RW Denney, finally, I am under the care of an expert physiotherapist, who works closely with my surgeon and really understands where I want to go with strength and mobility. In addition, today I return to the care of my long-term personal trainer, who also gets my needs and has developed a plan that was approved by the PT.
Any experience here with the LMS 7350?
Tim
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2021
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Tim, the 7350 is just a 5100 (or Micromark 7x16) glammed up with metal hand wheels & shiny knobs and the addition on rotary DRO's on the cross slide, compound & tailstock; it also comes with a QCTP with tool holders. All of the specs are the same.
The 5100 is not a "True Inch" machine like the Micromark: the 5100 cross slide & compound lead screws are 1.0mm, and the hand wheel graduations are ~0.001" (actually .03937 ÷ 40 = 0.000984"). The rotary DRO's do eliminate this issue, but they are not as good as a true linear DRO scale: the rotary do not solve backlash and (at least the early one's that I had and were replaced by LMS) had some issues.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
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- 7,495
Title of the thread is An electronic lead screw controller using a Teensy 4.1 in the RPI and Arduino Electronics forum. Pretty much covers it from soup to nuts. Basically rolled my own because the Clough42 boards were unobtainable when I was starting. Mine came out well, with a touch panel display and control. If you have any questions on it, please ask. I still have some spare PCBs that I had made. "Greatest thing since sliced bread".
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- Nov 14, 2016
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- 3,304
Nothing that hasn't already been covered, but I would also agree, think carefully about giving up the Logan. You are giving up a lot more than just the size, QCGB is a big one, but also your collection of tooling, and knowing the machine. Would adding some smaller tooling be a possibility? Just one example, a 4" chuck is probably less than 1/2 the weight of a 6" chuck.
There is also the moving the Logan out, which yes if you sell it may be mostly the buyers issue, but still a consideration.
If smaller is the way you decide to go, then with your work being primarily 1" and smaller diameter I would give a good look at Sherline and Taig. Both made in the USA with much better quality control than any of the small Chinese lathes. Also many options and accessories available for both. Both are capable of doing work larger than 1", with 2" dia being about the max to still allow full use on either lathe.
Sherline does offer risers bringing the swing over the bed up from 3-1/2" to 6".
In addition to the standard threaded spindle, Sherline offers a 3C collet head and lever collet closer (with significant added cost).
Taig offers an ER16 head for about $50 extra, or a 5C headstock which is significantly more expensive (about double the price of the standard head).
Both are easily converted to CNC, and some have used this feature to provide an hybrid manual / CNC for threading without change gears, essentially the same idea as an Electric Leadscrew.
If you need to do single point threading Sherline has a change gear accessory. It requires set up and is a manual, hand crank affair, but it does offer a very large range of threads. I bought an older second hand Sherline to set up as a dedicated threading platform. It was an older model missing the motor, so I got it cheap. With as small as the Sherline is, having a second lathe bed for this purpose, can easily be stored out of the way when not in use.
If you have a need for a small mill Sherline and Taig also offer small mills compatible with their lathes to make sharing tooling easy.
If you don't need a full mill, Sherline also sells a milling column for the lathe, which is a much better option than the generic milling attachments available for small lathes.
It is just the column from one of their mills with an adaptor to fit to the lathe bed. The cheapest option is to buy just the milling column and use the motor / headstock from the lathe which makes the Sherline lathe into a combo lathe / mill similar to the old Unimat lathes.
On the used market there are other options for quality small lathes, Emco Compact 5, Prazzi SD300, SD400. Much smaller than your Logan, similar weight to a 7" mini-lathe and much higher quality than most smaller lathes. Emco is Austrian, and Prazzi German made.
If you get lucky and budget isn't too much of an issue, you might consider an old clockmakers / toolroom lathe like a 7" Hardinge Cataract, or an 8" Schaublin.
Not that a 7" or 8" mini lathe won't work for you, but there are many options.
There is also the moving the Logan out, which yes if you sell it may be mostly the buyers issue, but still a consideration.
If smaller is the way you decide to go, then with your work being primarily 1" and smaller diameter I would give a good look at Sherline and Taig. Both made in the USA with much better quality control than any of the small Chinese lathes. Also many options and accessories available for both. Both are capable of doing work larger than 1", with 2" dia being about the max to still allow full use on either lathe.
Sherline does offer risers bringing the swing over the bed up from 3-1/2" to 6".
In addition to the standard threaded spindle, Sherline offers a 3C collet head and lever collet closer (with significant added cost).
Taig offers an ER16 head for about $50 extra, or a 5C headstock which is significantly more expensive (about double the price of the standard head).
Both are easily converted to CNC, and some have used this feature to provide an hybrid manual / CNC for threading without change gears, essentially the same idea as an Electric Leadscrew.
If you need to do single point threading Sherline has a change gear accessory. It requires set up and is a manual, hand crank affair, but it does offer a very large range of threads. I bought an older second hand Sherline to set up as a dedicated threading platform. It was an older model missing the motor, so I got it cheap. With as small as the Sherline is, having a second lathe bed for this purpose, can easily be stored out of the way when not in use.
If you have a need for a small mill Sherline and Taig also offer small mills compatible with their lathes to make sharing tooling easy.
If you don't need a full mill, Sherline also sells a milling column for the lathe, which is a much better option than the generic milling attachments available for small lathes.
It is just the column from one of their mills with an adaptor to fit to the lathe bed. The cheapest option is to buy just the milling column and use the motor / headstock from the lathe which makes the Sherline lathe into a combo lathe / mill similar to the old Unimat lathes.
On the used market there are other options for quality small lathes, Emco Compact 5, Prazzi SD300, SD400. Much smaller than your Logan, similar weight to a 7" mini-lathe and much higher quality than most smaller lathes. Emco is Austrian, and Prazzi German made.
If you get lucky and budget isn't too much of an issue, you might consider an old clockmakers / toolroom lathe like a 7" Hardinge Cataract, or an 8" Schaublin.
Not that a 7" or 8" mini lathe won't work for you, but there are many options.
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