Choosing a vise

[skcncx]

The CNC style vises tend to have a bit longer distance between the back of the vise to the front of the jaws, but overall length is usually shorter (so the 6" CNC vise is the same overall length as the standard 5" vise). Having a 6" vise is more versatile as far as accessories, jaws, etc. If you Y travel is shorter, or the table smaller than go with a smaller vise.

Thanks! Appreciate the analysis/input on sizing the vise. The length has been my biggest concern, vise bed hight a little bit as well. I like having more "options/accessories/stuff" available, so while 5" as a balance between 4 and 6", seems like not nearly as common.

I didn't realize tegara had the cnc vises, the 660U, even if I never mount on it's side, I do like those since they do have shorter bodies... less overhanging the front. Didn't pick up on the distance from back to front of fixed jaw nor about the different mounting hole locations. Some CNC vises don't have dedicated mounting holes, you just use clamp downs in the milled side channel so you seemingly have more flexibility how much over hang on the the table between it and the column.

Lots the think about. I guess, 4" and 6" in both styles work great on the 833TV. I was leaning toward Tegara, Homge from PM...less than $500, or ultra "throw away" cheap and use it to figure out what I really want/need.

 

[STEMtheMachining]

The advice Jeeper gave is the same advice I was given in another forum:

"Don't skimp on your cutters, measuring instruments, or vice."

All those items are things that add variables into your machining, and compound errors down the line.

I'd buy a used Kurt and restore it if I could.

There's a 6" Kurt milling vice on E*** for $275 right now.




Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[STEMtheMachining]

The advice Jeeper gave is the same advice I was given in another forum:

"Don't skimp on your cutters, measuring instruments, or vice."

All those items are things that add variables into your machining, and compound errors down the line.

I'd buy a used Kurt and restore it if I could.

There's a 6" Kurt milling vice on E*** for $275 right now.




Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Apologies, my app didn't show most of the posts (incl the one where you bought a vise) until after I posted mine.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Shotgun]

"Don't skimp on your cutters, measuring instruments, or vice."

Not to be pedantic, but what else is there to "skimp" on?

I've always felt that the "don't skimp" advice was just lazy. It give no insight into why paying $600 for a vice is better than $60. It makes no distinction between the guy that just wants to make chips, and the guy that has to make a living. All I hear when somebody says it is, "Spend all your money and hope your problems go away."

In this case, you point out a 6" Kurt for $250 that you'll need to restore from an unknown condition. If work is needed to get the thing up to snuff, what is the benefit over $100 for one of the clones, plus $150 to spend on a handful of milling cutter regrinds?

Not to mention that every one of us, barring the independently wealthy (and I am up for adoption, BTW), skimp on everything every chance we get.

 

[Dabbler]

@Shotgun - great question.

I started with a Busy Bee $250 vise that did the job on my 8X33 mill. This was in the 90s, and the vise was made in Taiwan. However, I did have to struggle a little with 'jaw lift' - where as you tighten the moving jaw lifts up a little, pulling you work off that parallel.

"I'm a hobbyist - no big deal" was my approach for 15 years. Then, just before I sold that mill, I bought a used unbranded Eurovise made in Germany. It was a smaller, but heavier vise - far less jaw lift. it was a joy to work with. It only opened to 250mm, which was way too small for the work I do.

My next mill was a 9X49 and I researched the vise thing for months. I settled on a Taiwanese Accusize clone of a Kurt D633 model, for 500$ new. It was like driving a luxury sports car versus driving an old clunker. Less than a tenth jaw lift at maximum holding, and normally none at all. 6" wide, and 7"opening without replacing the jaws. I was in Heaven.

5 years later my OCD kicked in and I began wondering if a Kurt was better. I also needed a second 6" vise for a multi vise setup for a job I was doing. I found a super sale at a distributor in the US, and got a price match at the same distributor in Canada. I managed to get it for pickup for under 700 CDN$.

I can say that my work has improved with the expensive vise, it is a joy to use, and I can now clamp almost anything. The work I do is all fairly big stuff, 24" long and needs a crane to lift to the table. so my decisions might not be right for you. This is just my experience.

 

[GeneT45]

I concur with the recommendation not to skimp on vise, cutting tools or instrumentation. But not skimping doesn't necessarily mean buying the most expensive thing out there - though sometimes it does. And It's not from being a lazy spendthrift. If I'd have bought right the first time, in many cases I would have saved money in the long run. There are still a huge number of things you can buy cheap - I'd hazard a guess that I have more invested in "cheap" tools than not, that don't fall into those three categories.

I work typically on smaller things than Dabbler, but my Kurt vise has been worth every penny - that after trying three other vises that probably in total cost about the same as a Kurt... Inferior cutters break, usually quickly, and can take your workpiece with them. I definitely make more pounds of chips per dollar spent since using quality cutting tools than I did when I tried to cut corners.

*Some* quality instrumentation is a must. If you can measure accurately, you can get away with cheap gauge blocks and the like, because you can test them. You can also compare to less expensive instrumentation to see if it's up to snuff. I have $10 knock around DTIs that I use frequently for tramming my vise and other mundane tasks - and I know that they're sufficiently accurate because I can test them against my good DTIs. Ironically I have a Starrett "Last Word" that I trust less than my $10 knock arounds - it's not about price...

I have some insert mills and insert threading tools that are all inexpensive and, for my purposes, every bit as good as anything I could buy. I also have 'name brand' insert tooling for most of my turning because my stabs at finding bargains didn't pan out (but did cost me good money). The biggest problem with the cheap stuff isn't that there aren't some great tools to be had for cheap - it's finding them without spending a fortune on useless junk. Buying a known good brand is just insurance that you'll get what you want the first time.

GsT

 

[Dabbler]

I think the way of thinking that a vise as an accessory is mistaken.

It is an integral part of making the machine function. 99%+ of the work on the machine is held in the vise one way or another, and the rigidity of the holding of the work piece is essential to not breaking cutters, getting a good finish and achieving accurate dimensions. On a 4000$ machine it makes sense (to me) to spend 700$ on a vise.

 

[STEMtheMachining]

Not to be pedantic, but what else is there to "skimp" on?

I've always felt that the "don't skimp" advice was just lazy. It give no insight into why paying $600 for a vice is better than $60. It makes no distinction between the guy that just wants to make chips, and the guy that has to make a living. All I hear when somebody says it is, "Spend all your money and hope your problems go away."

In this case, you point out a 6" Kurt for $250 that you'll need to restore from an unknown condition. If work is needed to get the thing up to snuff, what is the benefit over $100 for one of the clones, plus $150 to spend on a handful of milling cutter regrinds?

Not to mention that every one of us, barring the independently wealthy (and I am up for adoption, BTW), skimp on everything every chance we get.

I didn't mean to sound elitist here, and in retrospect, I should've been a little more clear in my statement.

There is a certain irony in the less familiar you are in a hobby or practice, the better quality tools/parts you need to do it well.

The reason is because you need to eliminate variables. If you're new to welding, and you buy some HF wire and you're not getting good welds, you lack the experience to

a) know if it's you or the machine
b) compensate effectively to make the lower quality product work

but an experienced welder will instinctively know the issue is with the wire, and compensate for it to deliver a quality product. A newbie to welding would just be frustrated and wonder why they can't get things to work right.

When it comes to machining, it's the same thing. I, a rank newbie, have no choice but to rely on certified instrumentation and the experience of others.

So when I said "don't skimp", that's what I meant. Not buy the most expensive thing, but buy quality items once that you can grow into, rather than cheap items several times that you will grow out of or break if you look at them wrong.

Buying used and restoring them is a good way to do that, and as an added bonus, allows you to learn how your tools and equipment really work.

That's why I suggested buying a used Kurt for $275. Even if you put an 8 hour day into cleaning and restoring it plus the lubrication, plus any parts, you're hundreds of dollars to the good vs buying a new one, and it would be the last vice you'll ever need to buy for that machine.








Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Shotgun]

I don't think you sounded elitist @STEMtheMachining . It's more of a pet peeve of mine after listening to "don't skimp" for years in every craft type forum I've been in, and never being any smarter for having heard it. Compare that to what you just wrote or @Dabbler's input. When I go to put money on a vise (or other tool) in the future, both pieces of advice will go with me and be part of the process.

To expand on my earlier input, I started with a cast piece of scrap metal that came with my mill. It sort of resembled what the Chinese guy casting it in his backyard thought a vice should look like. It would hold a piece of metal; but, a pair of vice-grips also would have. I did make some parts with it before it broke in two.

I replaced it with what I could afford (well, at least what she allowed me to afford. . . same thing?). Following a This Old Tony video . . . and also having a new DTI . . . and having considerably improved on my measurement skills, I was able to sweep it out and determine that the fixed jaw flared out by about a thou over 1/3rd of the width on the right side, and there was a 3 thou lift when I cranked down on a steel round. There was also a kinda "grindy" feel in the operation. Following the "convert the kit to a real vice" procedure I wrote here originally, I eliminated the lift and it runs butter smooth. Still have the problem with the hard jaw, but that fix would require the surface grinder I don't have. It is still a better vice than I am a machinist, so we're good. I was able to get other tools with the money I didn't spend on an expensive vice that have allowed me to discover where else my skills are deficient. I was able to move on and do things, instead of saving pennies for the next purchase.

Also when tempted to say "Don't skimp", we should consider survival bias. How many of those tools we didn't skimp on got destroyed because we didn't know what we didn't know and did something that in retrospect was REALLY stupid? How many expensive tools got used once (if at all), and have since sat unused (I'm refusing to look at my surface plate)? How many expensive tools have been found on ebay/yard sales/estate sales/etc still in the original box practically unused? How many expensive tools do you have for hobbies that you later decided you didn't even like? To the contrary, how many tools did we cheap out on, and yet have been using year on year without a complaint?

My advice is to skimp. Skimp every chance you get. Skimp like the kid in the toy section of the Dollar Store trying to buy every family member a Christmas present. Buy up every piece of Harbor Freight's finest plastic and pot metal. Tear it up. Trash it out. Learn where and how it breaks. What makes a good tool and what is scrap box fodder from the moment you leave the checkout. Then as your skills improve, buy decent tools that you can rely on to do the things you actually want to do.

However, if you're doing this (or any hobby), and expect to make a living at it. . . c'mon guys. Don't skimp.

 

[tim81]

Hi guys,

I know is 1 year later but I am looking for a vise too? Any advices, I got the pm940m and I am a newbie.

Tim